dont_do_it_doug. Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 20 hours ago, BOF said: It's a thread about him. It's had enough comment about his performances off the pitch already wouldn't you say? It seems positive off pitch performances get met with immediate resistance. Funny that. Including the sarcastic comment about it not sparking 10 pages of debate about his attitude? He's great in the community sure. Delighted. You can be several things at once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post markavfc40 Posted April 7, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 7, 2017 (edited) On 06/04/2017 at 14:20, BOF said: That's not to say he doesn't have his place though, and his time will come again. I agree I think he will come again. I think he gets a raw deal from some supporters. He has been a prat no doubt about that but in terms of what he has done on the pitch I think overall he has done okay but not helped by the fact that he was initially over hyped. I have a fair amount of sympathy for him in terms of what has happened at the club since he broke into the squad. He made his real big breakthrough under Sherwood and initially thrived and made a positive contribution to us reaching the FA cup final and staying up. Then at 19 he happened to be part of a squad that served up one of our worst seasons ever. That had three managers in a season. That had senior players who you’d hope would set the positive example to players just making their way in the game setting completely the wrong example. This season he has again worked under two managers. Been played out wide left, just behind a striker, as part of a middle three and at times a midfield 2. He has been suspended, his fault, and been injured. You look at it and he has been a fixture in the first team squad for just over two years. In that time worked under 5 permanent managers and a couple of interim. Has worked under numerous coaching staff. Has seen something like 50 players come or go. Worked alongside senior players who have been a disgrace in terms of attitude. Been played in numerous positions. All this between the ages of 19 and 21. The environment has hardly helped his development has it. That is not to say he doesn’t have a responsibility here and I totally accept some of his off field antics have been out of order. Conversely some of his actions off the pitch should be praised and I am pleased to see they have been recognised. I think this spell out of the side will do him good. The hype will almost certainly dissipate given he can’t at present get into a mid table Championship side. Over the summer he needs to knuckle down, have a solid pre season and force his way back in. Ability wise he is as good as any of our players it is now for him and those at the club to ensure that we see the best of him consistently where it matters on a match day. Edited April 7, 2017 by markavfc40 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post dont_do_it_doug. Posted April 7, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted April 7, 2017 You know he was a prat again a week or so ago, turning up late for an England U21 squad meeting and thus losing his starting place in the team? He made such a big fuss over picking which country he was going to play for, then he can't get his arse in gear when the chance comes to impress. It's really disappointing. He's consistently disappointing. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: He's consistently disappointing. I think the same thing every time I see him play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 He's certainly at a crossroads in his career now. The Liverpool cup semi final was pretty much two years ago, hopefully he won't spend the rest of his career living off that game. I said at the start of the season he was capable of being PFA team of the year standard this season, as influential as the likes of Shelvey and Matt Ritchie or Knockeart have been for their respective teams. He's been miles off that standard. Decent at the start of the season then had his off the field issues again, Bruce came in and gave him starts but he still flatters to deceive away from home for impact. I'd still keep him but whether he'll ever become as good as he was threatening to be in the run in of 14/15 is very much open to debate I'd say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post TrentVilla Posted April 7, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted April 7, 2017 I think there are some fair points raised in defence of Grealish, such as the amount of managers he has played under in his short Villa career. Granted, fair point and one that can't be disputed. Some of the others, such as raising the good things he does away from the game, well frankly they are less valid in my view but I'll come back to that. There has been much written and spoken of Jack the lad, lets focus first on the Jack the player. As a player, he is a talent. How much of a talent, for me it rather remains to be seen. I'm personally not convinced he is as talented as some make out, it is just that his attributes are eye catching. Who doesn't love a player with lovely balance, a nice touch and quick turn who is capable of putting players on their arses with body movement alone. Its the sort of thing that gets people off their seats, fans love that. I think everyone remembers the game early in his career against ironically Steve Bruce's Hull side where he came on and made their entire side look like cloggers. He had lumps kicked out of him, if I recall correctly he got a couple booked and one sent off. That sort of thing combined with being the local boy done good gets people excited, especially in such a low period for the club, we all long for a Holte End hero and Jack seemingly had that look about him. When he helped take Liverpool apart at Wembley I think a lot of people thought he had arrived. Well that day wwas almost 2 years ago now, I don't think anyone could realistically argue that he has progressed in the time that has elapsed. Love him or loath him, that surely has to be agreed by all and a concern for all. Some will point to the churn of managers. Some will point to his various off field incidents. Both are contributing factors in my view. But personally, I'm just starting to question how good a player he really is beyond his obvious attributes that I mentioned previously. For me, he lacks the sort of real pace that would make him devastating in a Robben kind of way (for clarity I'm not expecting him to play at a Robben level) . He is also often too slow on the ball, which stops him from being a effective player at playing others in. Those are two big issues for me. He isn't a wide player but I don't think he is effective enough to play CM, which leaves the number 10 spot but to date he just hasn't really done enough to justify playing there or being so key to the side. And that is part of the problem with Jack, despite all the managers he has played for at Villa non have managed to find out where to play him to make him effective. They've all liked the look of him but almost all have sooner or later taken him out the side. Given this, the issues around his mentality, conduct and actions come into play. If not for the above I think people would look past his various indiscretions, instead they are seen as being factors in the above. As being things that stop him from achieving levels people think his talent should see him attain. Some will seek to excuse some of his conduct, others will seek to castigate him for it. Some will point to the various good things he does and be frustrated that these aren't given the same level of attention as when he gets in trouble, frankly I think that is a little unrealistic. Grealish like a lot of footballers does plenty of good deeds, but lets face it with the lives they lead that should be expected and I think it is a little naive to think they will be heralded to the same extent as errors are highlighted. That is just how it is. Besides, good acts don't make him a better player, some of his other conduct though could be seen as being detrimental to his career. The divide in opinion about his conduct though is in my view a consequence of his inability to live up to the hype around him, which he in part contributed to with the Ireland/England thing but which I think we are all going to have to accept was overblown as is so frequently the case with youth products. He currently finds himself out the side having been sent off at Forest for frankly two moments of utter stupidity. I'm afraid poor decision making has so far been all too common in Jack's career on and off the pitch. He can't currently get into a mid table championship team, yet is a starter for England Under 21's (when he turns up to meetings on time) yet seemingly no other clubs are sniffing around him. The lad is at a cross roads in his career in my view, which way he goes is anyone's guess but is largely down to him. That might sound daft at 21 but I really do think next season is make or break for him. I'd love him to establish himself properly but I really have my doubts. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan_of_oz Posted April 7, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted April 7, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: You know he was a prat again a week or so ago, turning up late for an England U21 squad meeting and thus losing his starting place in the team? He made such a big fuss over picking which country he was going to play for, then he can't get his arse in gear when the chance comes to impress. It's really disappointing. He's consistently disappointing. I agree, I don't think it should be seen as bagging him or anything, factually he is a disappointment to himself, his club, and country. He is not getting the most out of himself and serving those who pay him poorly. He could go on to be the greatest player that ever lived, but that won't change the fact that right now he is just plainly and simply disappointing as a football player. Edited April 7, 2017 by Villan_of_oz 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 (edited) 3 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: You know he was a prat again a week or so ago, turning up late for an England U21 squad meeting and thus losing his starting place in the team? Yes I do know. I don’t know the circumstances behind that though and whether he would have a good reason for rocking up late or not. Maybe I am being too soft on him. I just see a young lad who came in to the side regularly a couple of years ago. He initially made a positive impact and I think he was almost certainly overhyped and that hype went to his head. What he could have done with was a strong manager and some good senior influences to quickly reign him back in. What he got was 4 managers in 8 months and senior figures such as Gabby, Richards and Lescott. Whilst I accept that even at 19/20 he has a responsibility to himself, and the club, the club had done nothing to aid his development for much of his time in the first team squad. Quite the opposite. As others have said he is now approaching a bit of a crossroads. Hopefully he does have some stability around him at the club now. Bruce is a strong manager, in Jedinak, Chester, Elphick etc he has some good senior influences and leaders around him. In addition for the first time ever for him he is now part of a squad and club that is actually striving to progress. It is now very much up to him to embrace all that and knuckle down and show us consistently the kind of performances we all know his ability can produce. Edited April 7, 2017 by markavfc40 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 Trents post sums it up beautifully in my view Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 I'd like to see him go out on loan for a season, away from his boyhood club - he needs to find himself as a player. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 4 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: You know he was a prat again a week or so ago, turning up late for an England U21 squad meeting and thus losing his starting place in the team? Are there reports about this? I must've missed it. What were the circumstances around it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 4 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: You know he was a prat again a week or so ago, turning up late for an England U21 squad meeting and thus losing his starting place in the team? Are there reports about this? I must've missed it. What were the circumstances around it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 51 minutes ago, mikeyp102 said: Are there reports about this? I must've missed it. What were the circumstances around it? there was a bit of column inches over it, i think the manager planned to make 11 changes between the 2 games but jack turned up late for a team meeting so didnt get picked, he came on after 38 minutes or something like that due to an injury and got an assist, i havent seen any reason / excuse as to why he was late 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 6 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said: You know he was a prat again a week or so ago, turning up late for an England U21 squad meeting and thus losing his starting place in the team? He made such a big fuss over picking which country he was going to play for, then he can't get his arse in gear when the chance comes to impress. It's really disappointing. He's consistently disappointing. And the most disappointing aspect is that he does have the talent. His performance in the semi-final against Liverpool was outstanding and he's done outstanding things in sporadic patches since. It's beyond frustrating 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 8 hours ago, DK82 said: I'd like to see him go out on loan for a season, away from his boyhood club - he needs to find himself as a player. He's already done that though. Might just be me but I always think when players properly break through into a team and then 18 months later suddenly get farmed out on loan is a signal they're being eased out of the door. That's what is happening with Wilshere and Arsenal. What level would we loan him out to aswell, it's no good just letting him go to a league one club as he showed 3 seasons ago he could excel at that level so I really don't know what it would prove. I doubt England under 21s would call him up if he was in league one for example. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 8 minutes ago, VillaChris said: He's already done that though. Might just be me but I always think when players properly break through into a team and then 18 months later suddenly get farmed out on loan is a signal they're being eased out of the door. That's what is happening with Wilshere and Arsenal. What level would we loan him out to aswell, it's no good just letting him go to a league one club as he showed 3 seasons ago he could excel at that level so I really don't know what it would prove. I doubt England under 21s would call him up if he was in league one for example. Albrighton is an example of a player who had a breakthrough season and then we didn't do the right thing, he is now worth 15-20m and a premier league winner. Wilshere is 4 years older than Jack and played just over 100 games before his 25th birthday. Jack has taken part in less than 60 and is only 21. Albrighton played less than 100 for us and was deemed not good enough. Who does Jack go to? A confident team who can afford to let him come in and find himself. Barnsley, Preston, maybe even Huddersfield? He needs to get away from the pressure of Villa and grow up whilst he does. He'll learn more that way than being in and out of our team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 10 hours ago, markavfc40 said: Yes I do know. I don’t know the circumstances behind that though and whether he would have a good reason for rocking up late or not. Maybe I am being too soft on him. I just see a young lad who came in to the side regularly a couple of years ago. He initially made a positive impact and I think he was almost certainly overhyped and that hype went to his head. What he could have done with was a strong manager and some good senior influences to quickly reign him back in. What he got was 4 managers in 8 months and senior figures such as Gabby, Richards and Lescott. Whilst I accept that even at 19/20 he has a responsibility to himself, and the club, the club had done nothing to aid his development for much of his time in the first team squad. Quite the opposite. As others have said he is now approaching a bit of a crossroads. Hopefully he does have some stability around him at the club now. Bruce is a strong manager, in Jedinak, Chester, Elphick etc he has some good senior influences and leaders around him. In addition for the first time ever for him he is now part of a squad and club that is actually striving to progress. It is now very much up to him to embrace all that and knuckle down and show us consistently the kind of performances we all know his ability can produce. I sincerely hope you are right Mark. I think the reasons you put forward have validity and are generous in order to create a bit of mitigation for the lad. I have seen many 19 year olds come through our club and have made a major impact....as you rightly point out, in much more conducive surroundings....but I detect a difference in character, sadly. I think as a club we are desperate for Jack to mature and fulfill his potential. I hope he can do that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerner's Driver Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 He's one of those lads who is naturally talented, handsome and very well paid... and it's all happened in a flash, before he can work out what is going on... None of which would be a problem if he also had the self awareness to realise that 'promise' only gets you so far, but unfortunately, he's just not very bright, so his talent will most probably go to waste. Happy to be proved wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 47 minutes ago, DK82 said: Albrighton is an example of a player who had a breakthrough season and then we didn't do the right thing, he is now worth 15-20m and a premier league winner. Not really the point of the thread but no chance. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dont_do_it_doug. Posted April 7, 2017 Share Posted April 7, 2017 12 hours ago, markavfc40 said: Yes I do know. I don’t know the circumstances behind that though and whether he would have a good reason for rocking up late or not. At this stage does it matter? 'We' keep giving people like Jack chance after chance and they've always got a good excuse - I was on holiday, it was a mate not me, it was my 21st and it got out of hand but I didn't do anything honest, my alarm didn't go off boss etc etc. I've been a supporter of Jack's and a critic when it's warranted, but my patience is wearing thin now. Ultimately Steve Bruce is a lot closer to the situation and will have his own ideas, I'll back him on it because I trust he won't stand for bollocks, no matter how talented the player. But personally I can no longer hide my disappointment and, unfortunately, my disinterest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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