Generic Virus Thread

[bannedfromHandV]

19 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

As far as the tracing thing goes what have we done? We keep hearing about the govt app being the game changer but it needs huge percentages of the population to voluntarily sign up to it for it to be effective.

Other than that, and it's a genuine question to the vt hive mind (especially those in the nhs or those who have had it) what efforts have been made to isolate, track and trace. 

We do this for certain std's albeit tentatively and despite the awkwardness. I haven't seen or heard anything to suggest we've been doing similar for this. Admittedly I may have missed it in the hubbub. 

I thought we were doing it early on when cases were at a minimum but I guess as it spread it became less manageable.

[sharkyvilla]

3 hours ago, VILLAMARV said:

Also do you have a link mate? genuine curiosity here, not sneering or anything. 

I'm a bell end and can't work out how to link it on my phone but it was in the article about how close we are to reaching the 5 criteria we need to come out of lockdown.

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

By reading the announcements from the Department of Health, by listening to the statements made by Ministers in the House of Commons, by listening to Patrick Vallance and Chris Whitty.

If there is capacity for 40,000 tests to be done per day then one should be assuming that this is 'in order to carry them out' and not just that there's a pile of 40,000 bits of test equipment labelled 'Monday', 'Tuesday', &c. stacked on a shelf.

If there are not the staff available to carry out 40k tests per day then there isn't the capacity for 40k tests per day.

Again, I'll reiterate the above (which has also been remarked upon by a number of other posters) - what you are saying here (by staff being pulled off testing, not being able to help to do it, still requiring training and so on) would impact the capacity, i.e. bring the capacity down fron 40k (or even perhaps down from 50k to what the Dept of Health claims it is now which is 40k) though it may have an effect on helping to get the demand to the supply as I've already acknowledged.

The points you make are important in as far as the practicalities of doing testing are concerned butr you are misunderstanding the issues and conflating them.

There is an issue with increasing capacity and there is, separately, an issue with being able to bridge the gap between the existing demand and the claimed/announced capacity though there may be a little crossover.

But 40000 is just a number. Unless ive missed it they need to break down how thats divided by the country  e.g RF trust should be testing between 20-50 a day, barts trust doing x amount.

I see your point about that, about capacity. But prof whitty isnt going to every hosputal to see staff capacity.  Its impossible for them to know staffing numbers for each trust as far as i am aware there is no one doing a audit for the number of staff in each day/week. I guess their logic would be its too time consuming or who do you out to do those figures for each personnel/department/trust.

In my opinion its silly for them to say they can test x amount of people daily as each trust operates differently with different challenges due to  numbers patients coming in etc.

 

 

[Villarocker]

4 hours ago, DCJonah said:

It stunned me that he has the balls to call it phenomenal. 

Also how do you go on shows like that and not have figures to hand? If the researchers for GMB can get them how the **** can elected politicians not? They really do come across and not giving a shit and completely useless. 

What surprised me was why Brandon Lewis didn't ask where they got that statistic from? He accepted it as fact. Now, if I was a cabinet minister in a serving government and I was going live on TV to be interviewed by a person known for their straight-talking I would ensure I had every bit of information ready. If that interviewer had information that I didn't have, I would ask where and how he got it. The fact that Lewis didn't do that tells me that he knew the answer but was embarrassed to say how many. 

[chrisp65]

The problem with not getting the testing done is because people are busy doing good life saving work. Yes, absolutely agree with that. They do not nip out for 2 minutes and find out in 5 minutes if they are ok to continue working with vulnerable people. So we have potentially contagious staff treating patients that may not have been contagious until they interacted with the NHS. Would anybody rock up for a non-covid related illness with that prospect? Would somebody already ill really volunteer to be seen by an NHS to busy to check if its giving Coronavirus to all its patients?

The problem is they just haven’t thought through the logistics. And that can only be the government’s fault. if it didn’t occur to them that having stations 90 miles away is a little awkward, or that they need staff to operate the testing, then that can only be their fault.

They cannot say, we provided 100,000 kits but you lot didn’t organise yourselves properly. Just like they cannot say everyone has enough PPE when clearly some have no PPE. Just as they can’t say frontline nurses are using the PPE wrong.

There are a thousand reasons the testing and the PPE and the advice are not perfect. Almost all of the problems come down to central government wanting to be in control, but also not being competent in a real life emergency.

If we are not able to test staff, then they might be infecting people or even increasing other people’s ‘viral load’. Not testing due to being too busy, is understandable, but actually might be what is causing them to be that busy. Less staff, more patients, because they didn’t test, creates more work for less people, so they can’t stop to test.

It’s a horrible downward spiral, of this governments making. There are a million unemployed, just think of all the people that could have been trained up 6 weeks ago to be testing staff. All those St John’s ambulance, all those life guards, the RNLI, the bloody army! They are an expensive resource trained to do our dirty work, why aren’t the TA’s and TA centres geared up for testing? 

Right now, anybody in Bridgend that needs a test, has a 50 mile round trip to get a test. Between those two points are any number of closed civic offices, schools, libraries, council car parks, DIY stores, drive thru fast food places. No, no, it has to be one giant testing centre an hour’s drive away. Presuming you have a car.

Great logistics. Actually, the very same flawed logistics they’ve used for the NHS for years. Massive centralised services miles and miles from the populace. Having a baby? No problem love, just pop in the car and there’s a maternity hospital a quick 30 miles up the motorway. Your child is ill anywhere in Wales? Not a problem, would you like to go to Bristol or Liverpoool?

 

[wazzap24]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

But haven’t we done all of that?

Early on we were identifying individuals then tracking who they’d come into contact with.

We’ve imposed quarantines on infected people and we brought in students and retired staff.

Unless I’m missing something? (Beyond the usual)

From what I have read, they simply did things quicker and more effectively. 
 

They banned flights from China in Feb, when they only had around a dozen cases 

Returning nationals were checked on arrival and isolated, foreign visitors too.

Used quarantine camps 

When they traced cases, they didn’t just go for immediate contacts, they traced contacts of contacts and isolated them all. 
 

The banning of flights and checking/isolating people on arrival is my favourite. It clearly works and our lot have just chatted complete bollocks on it. I suspect it’s because they know they dropped the ball. 
 

 

[Villarocker]

No way will be testing 100k per day in a week's time. If they say we are, they are lying! 

I spoke with my GP today and asked him about getting a test done. He said it won't happen anytime soon and the antibody test needs to be done within 5 days of having the virus. I asked about all these tests that aren't being taken up each day and his response was that if he called it in to request a test they would ask what my profession is and when he tells them they would refuse because I'm not in the health service.

So, unless they plan to test 100k of health care workers or people sick in hospital with the virus each day they have no chance of reaching the target. 

[Enda]

Just a reminder that on March 20th Tim Martin went on national media to claim shutting pubs was “over the top”.

[HanoiVillan]

6 minutes ago, Enda said:

Just a reminder that on March 20th Tim Martin went on national media to claim shutting pubs was “over the top”.

. . . and nobody from the government contradicted him.

[Chindie]

13 minutes ago, Enda said:

Just a reminder that on March 20th Tim Martin went on national media to claim shutting pubs was “over the top”.

Damnit. Seeing that words removed name come up I thought he'd got it.

[VILLAMARV]

14 minutes ago, Enda said:

Just a reminder that on March 20th Tim Martin went on national media to claim shutting pubs was “over the top”.

Never heard him bothered about it when he was bankrupting people with his hideous business model

[blandy]

5 hours ago, snowychap said:

apparently the desire is to increase capacity further still to 100k by the end of the month

 

5 hours ago, DCJonah said:

 the government are already spinning their failed promise. They shouldn't be allowed to.

Note that from the Andrew Neil twitter and snowy's reference to "capacity" the narrative has successfully been changed from number of tests conducted, to capacity to test

4 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Hancock’s pledge was specifically tests carried out. I pray that journalists don’t let them forget this. It’s still on the governments own website

This, thisity, this. It really matters, because several reasons. 1. Actually testing people really matters, obviously - it will reduce the number of additional people becoming infected by removing those carrying the infection from contact with uninfected people via isolation. 2. It will allow the spread of the virus to be much better understood, and for then appropriate steps to be taken. 3. Capacity (which can't really be accurately verified, anyway - I mean as has been pointed out, sort of, if they build a massive testing centre in the outer Hebrides, then it's no use to all but a handful of people - capacity needs to be utilised to matter, to be of use and make a difference). 4. They basically made up a number as a temporary distraction, and are now being dishonest about it, shifting the conversational mentions of Journos and others to use "capacity" not "tests performed". They can't be allowed to get away with it at all - they will repeat the tactic otherwise. 5. People need to be told the actual truth, to buy into the steps the Gov't wants people to take. 6. Testing is a major key to the way out of this, until a cure/vaccine is in place. Reneging on promises, and being allowed to get away with it reduces the effort being put into meeting pledges.

[HanoiVillan]

On Vietnam, one slightly misleading thing people will say is 'but it has a long border with China!' as if therefore of course many infected people would have travelled over that border. In reality, diplomatic relations between Vietnam and China are poor and have been for decades, and it is quite difficult (though not impossible) to get visas to travel between the two countries. If the Vietnamese authorities acted quickly (I'm assuming they did from the reporting) it probably wasn't too hard to trace everyone who crossed the border.

[HanoiVillan]

47 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

If we are not able to test staff, then they might be infecting people or even increasing other people’s ‘viral load’. Not testing due to being too busy, is understandable, but actually might be what is causing them to be that busy. Less staff, more patients, because they didn’t test, creates more work for less people, so they can’t stop to test.

It’s a horrible downward spiral, of this governments making. There are a million unemployed, just think of all the people that could have been trained up 6 weeks ago to be testing staff. All those St John’s ambulance, all those life guards, the RNLI, the bloody army! They are an expensive resource trained to do our dirty work, why aren’t the TA’s and TA centres geared up for testing?

This is the key point, isn't it. I'm perfectly happy to take Dem's word that the main constraint on testing is a lack of staff availability - he's on the ground, after all. However, that can't be the end of the conversation. It's not 'well, we don't have enough staff, so I guess that's it'. The next part is what are we going to change so that staffing isn't the constraint on capacity. Are soldiers going to be giving the tests? Beautiacians and massge thereapists? I don't know. But clearly, when something is essential to everything else, but there's a constraint blocking that thing from happening, then pretty much everything else becomes secondary to solving that constraint.

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

This is the key point, isn't it. I'm perfectly happy to take Dem's word that the main constraint on testing is a lack of staff availability - he's on the ground, after all. However, that can't be the end of the conversation. It's not 'well, we don't have enough staff, so I guess that's it'. The next part is what are we going to change so that staffing isn't the constraint on capacity. Are soldiers going to be giving the tests? Beautiacians and massge thereapists? I don't know. But clearly, when something is essential to everything else, but there's a constraint blocking that thing from happening, then pretty much everything else becomes secondary to solving that constraint.

 

Perhaps the VT hive mind is genius. But it kinda just feels obvious.

 

Whatever happened to that army of 250,000 volunteers? I’ve got a close relative that is (was) a lab technician. That lab is closed, I don’t know if the lab would be suitable for any sort of use. But lab technicians? She’s currently sat at home, furloughed. Meanwhile: not enough personnel to carry out testing.

 

 

[blandy]

9 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Are soldiers going to be giving the tests?

Some of them are already.

[Paddywhack]

6 minutes ago, blandy said:

Some of them are already.

Where? I can't see anyone.

[Genie]

7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

Perhaps the VT hive mind is genius. But it kinda just feels obvious.

 

Whatever happened to that army of 250,000 volunteers? I’ve got a close relative that is (was) a lab technician. That lab is closed, I don’t know if the lab would be suitable for any sort of use. But lab technicians? She’s currently sat at home, furloughed. Meanwhile: not enough personnel to carry out testing.

 

 

You’re right about the volunteers, is this the same as the people offering to make PPE that the government are ignoring?
Not sure about the current tests but the idea was they would be easy, DIY jobbies. The 250k volunteers should be able to hand out the test and then log the result you’d have thought.

They could be stationed in hospital car parks so that NHS staff could get the test before or after their shifts.

 

[chrisp65]

9 minutes ago, Genie said:

You’re right about the volunteers, is this the same as the people offering to make PPE that the government are ignoring?
Not sure about the current tests but the idea was they would be easy, DIY jobbies. The 250k volunteers should be able to hand out the test and then log the result you’d have thought.

They could be stationed in hospital car parks so that NHS staff could get the test before or after their shifts.

Yep, exactly.

I’m not suggesting they could all do it, some might be nasal fetishists, of bogeyphobic. But if just 5% of them were sensible competent people with some basic nouse and first aid, well that’s thousands of extra assistants. Even if they were just delivering and dispatching around more localised test centres or something.

There’s absolutely no harm in changing a plan after you’ve had more planning time.

[HanoiVillan]

To be fair, the army of volunteers are probably a problem in their own right, as per the discussion here:

At the moment, we seem to be struggling to do the admin stuff more than the medical stuff, which seems to be holding up comparatively well.