Generic Virus Thread

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, ml1dch said:

 

"Siri, can you give me an example of cognitive dissonance?"

Boris johnson wasnt prime minsister at the time cameron was so a different government. So poor example i am afraid.

[Demitri_C]

Can i also add that we are being tested at royal free hospital as staff so dont believe the media bullshit that staff are not being tested. Its not at every trust

Edited April 22, 2020 by Demitri_C

[Awol]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

Can i also add that we are being tested at royal free hospital as staff so dont believe the media bullshit that staff are not being tested. Its not at every trust

Odd that... I’ve got a mate on the ambulances in Cardiff who claims they’ve got no PPE shortages. Another one who’s wife is an ICU nurse in Dundee, same story. 

Shortages anywhere are a serious problem and the mistakes are very clear, but I think some folks are reluctant to acknowledge both the sheer scale of the challenge and the localised nature of some issues - if that means giving the government any credit for anything, ever. 

Anyone thinking they wouldn’t use the NHS contact tracing app, assuming it works? 

 

[chrisp65]

10 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Boris johnson wasnt prime minsister at the time cameron was so a different government. So poor example i am afraid.

Same party, same politics, same people, same ministers.

Tory government.

Ten years of deliberately bad decisions, ten years of austerity under every tory leader and every tory chancellor.

They lied about money for a decade.

[snowychap]

10 minutes ago, Awol said:

Anyone thinking they wouldn’t use the NHS contact tracing app, assuming it works?

I most certainly would not - as you suggest whether it works is another matter.

Edited April 22, 2020 by snowychap

[Stevo985]

22 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Can i also add that we are being tested at royal free hospital as staff so dont believe the media bullshit that staff are not being tested. Its not at every trust

The media aren’t saying that no staff are being tested. Just that some aren’t. Which is true unless you’re saying every single NHS staff member has been tested?

 

And when you consider we apparently have the capacity to do 40,000 tests a day but are actually doing less than half that, you have to ask why...

[Stevo985]

15 minutes ago, Awol said:

Odd that... I’ve got a mate on the ambulances in Cardiff who claims they’ve got no PPE shortages. Another one who’s wife is an ICU nurse in Dundee, same story. 

Shortages anywhere are a serious problem and the mistakes are very clear, but I think some folks are reluctant to acknowledge both the sheer scale of the challenge and the localised nature of some issues - if that means giving the government any credit for anything, ever. 

Anyone thinking they wouldn’t use the NHS contact tracing app, assuming it works? 

 

I think most people acknowledge the scale. But again it’s the dishonesty around it that bothers me. And the fact they were slow to react which is unacceptable. 

[Awol]

5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

It’s the dishonesty around it that bothers me. And the fact they were slow to react which is unacceptable. 

Agree on both points. 

6 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

And when you consider we apparently have the capacity to do 40,000 tests a day but are actually doing less than half that, you have to ask why...

Logistics and planning. The irony is the government can command the most effective organisation in the country (in almost any country) at crisis management and doing difficult things at speed and scale.

Instead ministers are reluctant to let the military take a more direct role in management and delivery, probably fearing the accusation that they couldn’t handle it themselves. They could do it with testing, they should have done it weeks ago with PPE. That hasn’t happened. 

[chrisp65]

I don’t think anyone has ever claimed the PPE has totally run out, there’s none left and nobody is getting tested. Those are two responses to claims that simply haven’t been made.

That’s the bollocks, the refuting of a claims that haven’t been made.

It’s patchy, its unreliable. There are midwives across South Wales being sent out with no PPE other than what they can personally conjur up. From within the same building, there are people being sent to triage that have full PPE.

Equally, as there have been 22,000 covid tests carried out in Wales in total, and there are 33,300 nurses and midwives, I’d suggest there may be some nurses and midwives that haven’t been tested.

It’s not absolute black / white, right / wrong.

[markavfc40]

No government could be expected to be completely prepared for something like this but I think a lot of people feel we could have been much better prepared and used the foresight of being able to see what was happening in Italy much better and acted much sooner. All the way along it seems we have been reactive and not pro active and constantly playing catch up.

I don't for a second doubt the magnitude of the task and perhaps from such a poor starting point we have made half a fist of it. There have though been clear failings and it would be nice to see some humility from the government in acknowledging those rather than patting themselves on the back.

Edited April 22, 2020 by markavfc40

[terrytini]

Trump saying “ it might not come back , but even if we do ‘have embers’ it won’t be anything like what we’ve just been through, it will be smaller doses which we can contain. In my opinion (!!) it can never be anything like we’ve just gone through.”

When will his Party grow some balls and ditch this maniac ?

 

[chrisp65]

Nobody expects a perfect response to something so novel and so massive.

It’s cocks like Hancock stating on national tv there is no problem, the only problem is nurses using PPE wrongly. 

Should have been sacked within the hour the creepy little shit.

[terrytini]

I don’t think there is a subject in history that hasn’t had “ two sides to the argument”.

But the day I even try to see the “other side” in the catastrophically negligent and ideologically bankrupt way this government has handled this virus is the day I will retire to the funny farm.

From the long term needless destruction of the health service and much other public infrastructure, to the scaling back of Emergency Planning exercises, to ignoring the recommendations of those they did do, to the smashing of our co- operative arrangements with our European neighbours, the ignorance of, then pathetic response to, the early outbreaks across the globe, right through to the tragically late imposition of ‘ lockdown’, ongoing Heath Robinson approach to co-ordinated national efforts, dismal “ news” conferences, misleading statements, and abandoning to die of those in Care Homes.

For the life of me, why would anyone other than a Tory even waste effort trying to “ see other side”.

In a truly civilised society the whole incompetent, heartless gang would be run out of town.

[HanoiVillan]

For a little lighter relief (and apologies if this has been posted before), celebrities have been struggling without their cleaners and assorted other helpers in this trying time:

 

[Villarocker]

I've had a strange 24 hours. I was totally knackered on Tuesday evening so took a day's holiday yesterday. I was lethargic for most of the day, until the evening time. I also had a bad headache when I woke in the morning and the pain behind the left eye returned. Finally, in the night, I woke up and was soaked all over in sweat. It was like I had some mini episode of my illness again. 

This morning, I've woken and feel fine. 

[snowychap]

Older people could face extended coronavirus lockdown, Lords hears

Quote

The health minister, Lord James Bethell, twice refused to deny that older people will be told to stay in extended lockdown in response to questions in the Lords on Wednesday.

“I was very concerned by the government’s refusal to answer my question,” said Lord David Blunkett, the former home secretary. “Older people must not be subjected to arbitrary incarceration as well as isolation.”

...

Bethell was forced to defend himself against accusations in the Lords from the former Labour energy minister Lord Truscott of a danger “that extending the lockdown for only certain groups might unintentionally discriminate against elderly and vulnerable people”.

Bethell was also unable to satisfy Conservative peer Lord Lucas, who asked: “Can we please ensure that vulnerable people have agency, that those who want to act as the unvulnerable are allowed to, that grandparents who wish to see their children are allowed to and, at the same time, that those who are young and vulnerable are protected in their decision to continue to isolate and are not discriminated against because of it?”

Bethell said: “It is an unfortunate fact that those who are medically vulnerable are singled out by the virus. We have to put in place measures to protect and safeguard their lives. It is the virus that makes this discrimination, not the government.

...more

I think this is a real worry, i.e. that, as any part of a route out of the current situation, mandatory (or even just 'strongly advised by the government' because that often becomes a de facto mandation) restrictions become discrimatory (even if it is in order to 'protect' those people).

Whilst it's a collective effort and everyone is subject to the same sorts of restrictions then there's less of an issue for me. As soon as it's being thought about restricting particular groups over and above that (against their wishes) then it's not acceptable.

Edited April 23, 2020 by snowychap

[Demitri_C]

8 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

The media aren’t saying that no staff are being tested. Just that some aren’t. Which is true unless you’re saying every single NHS staff member has been tested?

 

And when you consider we apparently have the capacity to do 40,000 tests a day but are actually doing less than half that, you have to ask why...

You realise what sort of scale of staff that requires stevo? This is going to take absolutely ages.

I can name you various reasons stevo why:

1. Staffing issues. So many people are off at the moment due to the virus so to scale that sort of number would be impossible.

2. Time and preparation. You need time to do the tests but the major scale of the crisis all staff are trying to save lives. In addition you need time to train people properly. Its taking weeks to get the correct training in place. We even have set up training programmes at our trust for how to use the ppe equipment properly. This took weeks to organise due to staffing problems, ensuring everything was correct on the training, and that the pp equipment was safe to use.

3. Medical professionals working flat out to treat patients. Nurses and consultants are in a & e, wards, and other parts of the hospital treating patients. If you you take out a high volume of people to be treated you risk having a lower level of staff to treat patients.

4. I cant speak on other trusts, but it takes around 30 minutes from friends i know who have been tested in and out. So if you got one person testing or two even your only gonna do around 10 a day.

Its easy to criticise any government during this time but until you actually come and see how hard it is its abit unfair. 

My only criticism is that we should have been prepared way before this had happened. Stopped flights immediately close tubes etc. Also if this were to ever arise again we need to test people at airports to minimise the spread on travel

[Awol]

1 hour ago, Villarocker said:

I've had a strange 24 hours. I was totally knackered on Tuesday evening so took a day's holiday yesterday. I was lethargic for most of the day, until the evening time. I also had a bad headache when I woke in the morning and the pain behind the left eye returned. Finally, in the night, I woke up and was soaked all over in sweat. It was like I had some mini episode of my illness again. 

This morning, I've woken and feel fine. 

Are you keeping a diary of symptoms during recovery? Might be useful later - if not to you then to someone else.

Edit: obviously good you’re feeling better today!  

Edited April 23, 2020 by Awol

[snowychap]

29 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

You realise what sort of scale of staff that requires stevo? This is going to take absolutely ages.

Most of what you are talking about there is capacity, e.g. time taken to do the tests, training, staffing issues.

Some things might be about the ability to match the demand to the supply, e.g. people taking time out of their activities dealing with patients to get tested. *

I think you're slightly missing the point being made (by Stevo here and by people like Starmer elsewhere) which is that if there is capacity to do 40,000 tests per day (so that means that the points that you have made concerning capacity are included within that number - these points would concern increasing the capacity from 40k to Hancock's magic 100k) and fewer than 20k were done and people in front line care (whether at some NHS trusts or in care settings) who want and need the test are not getting it then there is an issue about matching that demand to the supply (i.e. the daily capacity declared by the government).

 

*Edit:

Actually, no. 2 may also apply to localised issues about matching demand to the supply, so could suggest why overall capacity is X but localised demand of Y is not able to access that supply.

Edited April 23, 2020 by snowychap

[Jareth]

1 hour ago, snowychap said:

Older people could face extended coronavirus lockdown, Lords hears

I think this is a real worry, i.e. that, as any part of a route out of the current situation, mandatory (or even just 'strongly advised by the government' because that often becomes a de facto mandation) restrictions become discrimatory (even if it is in order to 'protect' those people).

In Wales women in their 60s are most likely to die from it, followed by women in their 50s. Maybe over the UK this is not the picture but it shows the regional differences in the UK and how maybe this sort of rule making should at least be devolved (I think the option is there). 

As for finding the good in our government's actions - well, it seems every day brings another poor story of their actions, privitising the company who look after the stockpile of PPE - which then sold the company mid crisis and has an ongoing battle with the developer who built the warehouse. Talk about insult to injury. I'll think kindly of the government when the mass testing is in place finally, and lock-down can be eased, until then, what a shower.....