Generic Virus Thread

[markavfc40]

There was an oncologist on the news tonight saying that 60000 people could die in the UK this year from lack of cancer diagnosis or treatment who otherwise wouldn't have done. He said that in a usual April they would usually diagnose 30000 people with cancer but this month he would be surprised if they diagnose 5000. In terms of treatment just from personal experience my uncle had his chemo stopped in late March, he had undertaken one round at that stage with his next one due on April 1st. He has been told he will be reviewed in mid May. By then it could be too late for chemo.

You then add in that the ONS said yesterday there are 2k deaths above normal that aren't down to the coronavirus. This suggests that people are dying from a failure to get treatment or call an ambulance/go to A and E for other issues perhaps when they have had a heart attack or stroke.

On the one hand then we clearly need to get people who would normally attend hospital back there be it for treatment, diagnosis, operations or ensuring people are attending when it is an emergency. From what we are told the hospitals at the moment do have plenty of capacity. On the other hand though there is a desire to loosen lock down restrictions which offer up the potential for numbers to increase and the NHS capacity to reduce which will then result in those needing treatment for other issues not being able to get it.

I'd imagine come the end of all this whatever the deaths are directly from coronvirus you can add the same again at least from people dying indirectly from it.

Edited April 22, 2020 by markavfc40

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

 

This isn't the case. Gardens are specifically called out as being part of your property, and therefore ok. It's to deal with the loophole explained above. It got some publicity when some barristers were discussing the issue on Twitter a week or so ago. 

Yes, we know that but this is a modification as of today

[Stevo985]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

Yes, we know that but this is a modification as of today

Yeah to close that loophole. 
 

It’s not stopping you going in your garden. 

[Demitri_C]

7 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

There was an oncologist on the news tonight saying that 60000 people could die in the UK this year from lack of cancer diagnosis or treatment who otherwise wouldn't have done. He said that in a usual April they would usually diagnose 30000 people with cancer but this month he would be surprised if they diagnose 5000. In terms of treatment just from personal experience my uncle had his chemo stopped in late March, he had undertaken one round at that stage with his next one due on April 1st. He has been told he will be reviewed in mid May. By then it could be too late for chemo.

You then add in that the ONS said yesterday there are 2k deaths above normal that aren't down to the coronavirus. This suggests that people are dying from a failure to get treatment or call an ambulance/go to A and E for other issues perhaps when they have had a heart attack or stroke.

On the one hand then we clearly need to get people who would normally attend hospital back there be it for treatment, diagnosis, operations or ensuring people are attending when it is an emergency. From what we are told the hospitals at the moment do have plenty of capacity. On the other hand though there is a desire to loosen lock down restrictions which offer up the potential for numbers to increase and the NHS to become overwhelmed which will then result in those needing treatment for other issues not being able to get it.

I'd imagine come the end of all this whatever the deaths are directly from coronvirus you can add the same again at least from people dying indirectly from it.

This is a very serious issue. I alone work in endoscopy and that is one diagnostic examination in the nhs yet we are not booking none. Not even suspected cancer patients. What the hell happens to those patients that need a gastroscopy or colonsocopy for suspected cancer? They could be aaiting months and like this could be too late.  Its horrific. 

The back log when we do start rebooking endoscopy procedures is going to be a absolute nightmare.

[Stevo985]

Chris Whitty is definitely my favourite person who regularly faces the press in the daily updates.

Literally the only person who answers questions like a normal human being. 

You can tell he works in a field where, when you're asked a question, you're actually expected to answer it, and explain why you've answered it that way. And if you don't then it goes against you.

As opposed to politicians who get to the top by never answering a question properly.

[markavfc40]

The government are making a song and dance about how well they have done in ensuring the NHS has not been overwhelmed. How much of that is down to the fact they have cancelled thousands of operations, treatments, diagnosis and that hundreds/thousands of people who would usually have gone to A and E haven't and have then in some cases ended up dying at home. 

They have made the capacity in hospitals to try to ensure the capacity was there to treat those with coronavirus. In doing so though it has probably cost thousands of other lives as a result. I am not so sure that is something they should be seeing as an achievement that warrants praise.

Edited April 22, 2020 by markavfc40

[bickster]

13 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Yeah to close that loophole.

TBH I didn't realise that was a loophole

[Stevo985]

Just now, bickster said:

TBH I didn't realise that was a loophole

Not sure if anyone had used it. Dunno if they'd caught anyone who'd gone to a party after leaving his house to exercise  

But it was doing the rounds on social media as something that could be exploited so imagine the update today is just to stop it being a question anymore.

The specifics around what remains part of "where you live" is the same. And it includes gardens.

[bickster]

7 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

And it includes gardens.

Oh that bit I knew, I just keep seeing the police over reacting to people in gardens or... round by the Everton ground, people having a barbeque in the street (they have no front gardens)

[Demitri_C]

9 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

The government are making a song and dance about how well they have done in ensuring the NHS has not been overwhelmed. How much of that is down to the fact they have cancelled thousands of operations, treatments, diagnosis and that hundreds/thousands of people who would usually have gone to A and E haven't and have then in some cases ended up dying at home. 

They have made the capacity in hospitals to try to ensure the capacity was there to treat those with coronavirus. In doing so though it has probably cost thousands of other lives as a result. I am not so sure that is something they should be seeing as an achievement that warrants praise.

Mate  i cant speak for other trusts, but at mine the consultants who would be doing outpatients, procedures etc are on the front line helping with this. Also you have to remember alot of beds in lets say endoscopy are now being used for covid 19 patients. There is absolutely no way nhs could cope if these services were not cancelled. 

I dont think we can blame the government for that. Whats happening here is unbelievable. I saw blair on GMB and even he said he cant critise the government as its so hard to manage this situation.

If the services were not  cancelled i think the covid 19 death rates would be much much higher.

Also mark you have to factor people do not want to come into hospital at the moment while all this is going on.  The amount of cancellations we had before all tcis were cancelled by the hospital was ridiculous. Alot of money costing the nhs.

[markavfc40]

1 minute ago, Demitri_C said:

Mate  i cant speak for other trusts, but at mine the consultants who would be doing outpatients, procedures etc are on the front line helping with this. Also you have to remember alot of beds in lets say endoscopy are now being used for covid 19 patients. There is absolutely no way nhs could cope if these services were not cancelled. 

I dont think we can blame the government for that.

I agree with some of what you say but maybe if we hadn't gone into this crisis with 6 ICU beds per 100k people and had say the 29 that Germany have per 100k people then we wouldn't have had to free up space elsewhere.

The government shouldn't be praised, or be praising themselves, for having made capacity when the lack of capacity pre this crisis was their making.

[Genie]

It would be interesting to know if other developed countries are having the same issues with PPE. Also, if they cleared their decks of all operations and treatments like we did. 

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, markavfc40 said:

I agree with some of what you say but maybe if we hadn't gone into this crisis with 6 ICU beds per 100k people and had say the 29 that Germany have per 100k people then we wouldn't have had to free up space elsewhere.

The government shouldn't be praised, or be praising themselves, for having made capacity when the lack of capacity pre this crisis was their making.

For me the closing of hospitals was absolutely disgraceful and we are seeing the consequences. But that dont hide the fact we wouldnt have enough people to treat patients. When you think footballers get 50k a week yet a band 3 nurse gets around £9 a hour. Tells you the scale of the problem. 

I would stop short of saying id praise the government. But i dont think they are doing a terrible job either.  Its easy to criticise any government during this time but its bloody tough. Its a global problem that most have never seen in our life time.

 

[ml1dch]

14 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

For me the closing of hospitals was absolutely disgraceful and we are seeing the consequences.

 

14 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

I would stop short of saying id praise the government. But i dont think they are doing a terrible job either. 

"Siri, can you give me an example of cognitive dissonance?"

[Stevo985]

The longer it goes on the worse a job I think the government are doing. I started off fairly positive about how they are handling it.

It's the dishonesty that annoys me. Maybe it's just me, but if they were at least honest about what they were and weren't doing and mistakes they'd made, I think I'd look at them more favourably.

[markavfc40]

2 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

Maybe it's just me, but if they were at least honest about what they were and weren't doing and mistakes they'd made, I think I'd look at them more favourably.

They seem to have to gone the other way and are now bigging themselves up at every opportunity and stating what a great job they have done and are doing.

[Stevo985]

Just now, markavfc40 said:

They seem to have to gone the other way and are now bigging themselves up at every opportunity and stating what a great job they have done and are doing.

Yep. And I know why they do it. They don't have anyone to answer to except the public, and the more they tell everyone what a good job they're doing the more people will believe it. 

But it still irks me. 

[snowychap]

 

A question or two on this at the White House briefing tonight might be interesting.

[Villarocker]

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

There was an oncologist on the news tonight saying that 60000 people could die in the UK this year from lack of cancer diagnosis or treatment who otherwise wouldn't have done. He said that in a usual April they would usually diagnose 30000 people with cancer but this month he would be surprised if they diagnose 5000. In terms of treatment just from personal experience my uncle had his chemo stopped in late March, he had undertaken one round at that stage with his next one due on April 1st. He has been told he will be reviewed in mid May. By then it could be too late for chemo.

You then add in that the ONS said yesterday there are 2k deaths above normal that aren't down to the coronavirus. This suggests that people are dying from a failure to get treatment or call an ambulance/go to A and E for other issues perhaps when they have had a heart attack or stroke.

On the one hand then we clearly need to get people who would normally attend hospital back there be it for treatment, diagnosis, operations or ensuring people are attending when it is an emergency. From what we are told the hospitals at the moment do have plenty of capacity. On the other hand though there is a desire to loosen lock down restrictions which offer up the potential for numbers to increase and the NHS capacity to reduce which will then result in those needing treatment for other issues not being able to get it.

I'd imagine come the end of all this whatever the deaths are directly from coronvirus you can add the same again at least from people dying indirectly from it.

Disgraceful when you read about the NEC Nightingale not seeing a single patient. 

[markavfc40]

6 minutes ago, Villarocker said:

Disgraceful when you read about the NEC Nightingale not seeing a single patient. 

It is one thing having the beds it is another having the doctors and nurses.

Edited April 22, 2020 by markavfc40