Generic Virus Thread

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

im actually disgusted at that example you provided

i cant believe you would stoop so low to post that to prove  a point. that is deeply offensive 

 

But I used the word apparently at the end of the sentence so it doesn't mean its fact

[Genie]

About 6 months ago my mum had a blood clot behind her eye and a small stroke.

If that had happened within a week or 2 of having a vaccine someone on an Internet forum would probably be saying that it was caused by the vaccine, but obviously it wasn’t.

People have been having blood clots forever, some people are under 40 have blood clots. In a time when millions are getting vaccinated some people will have a blood clot within a short period of time. It can just be a coincidence. 

[Demitri_C]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

But I used the word apparently at the end of the sentence so it doesn't mean its fact

You have taken my background to attack me and then use a slur against Cypriot people (this is bordeline offensive and racist) its absolutely disgusting and you took a debate too far. Your example is pathetic to try prove a point.

I really have no desire to talk to you anymore after that comment. 

[LondonLax]

38 minutes ago, bickster said:

just a reminder...

EMA Investigation into clotting and the AZ Jab

I think that research has been superseded now. The issue of blood clotting on the brain is now considered a potential side effect of AZ (and J&J), particularly in younger women, and is no longer recommended for use for people under 40 in most countries unless no other vaccine options are available.

https://www.ema.europa.eu/en/news/astrazenecas-covid-19-vaccine-ema-finds-possible-link-very-rare-cases-unusual-blood-clots-low-blood

Quote

EMA’s safety committee (PRAC) has concluded today that unusual blood clots with low blood platelets should be listed as very rare side effects of Vaxzevria (formerly COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca).

The PRAC noted that the blood clots occurred in veins in the brain (cerebral venous sinus thrombosis, CVST) and the abdomen (splanchnic vein thrombosis) and in arteries, together with low levels of blood platelets and sometimes bleeding.

The risks described and risk profile seem to match with what happened to the woman in Cyprus but we’ll have to wait for the results of the investigation to be sure.

[bannedfromHandV]

Shhh, we’re only allowed to post about new variants and to deride the idiots who haven’t yet taken up a vaccine in here.

 

Possible blood clotting in otherwise healthy people who almost certainly wouldn’t die even if they got COVID is to be ignored and dismissed.

[chrisp65]

Meh, fill yer boots.

 

Edited May 25, 2021 by chrisp65

[fightoffyour]

The story should be that a woman died of a blood clot after flying on a plane, apparently.

[bannedfromHandV]

I accept, more than many I’d suggest right now, that blood clotting occurs with or without a jab. My partners brother in law dropped dead at 52 two weeks ago from a pulmonary embolism, for the record he had not had the jab.

But as with a lot of things on VT, it’s a very one sided discussion, or even not a discussion at all to consider any alternate concerns or views on the vaccination programme.

I don’t know what’s right or wrong any more, truth or fiction, confidence in these matters would be greatly increased were we not living in an age of smoke and mirrors I think.

[sharkyvilla]

12 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I accept, more than many I’d suggest right now, that blood clotting occurs with or without a jab. My partners brother in law dropped dead at 52 two weeks ago from a pulmonary embolism, for the record he had not had the jab.

But as with a lot of things on VT, it’s a very one sided discussion, or even not a discussion at all to consider any alternate concerns or views on the vaccination programme.

I don’t know what’s right or wrong any more, truth or fiction, confidence in these matters would be greatly increased were we not living in an age of smoke and mirrors I think.

I suspect with AZ being one of the 'old school' types of vaccination by injecting a small dose of virus to get a response from the immune system that you can get similar side effects to the virus.  A fair chunk of people (is it 1 in 10) who had it seem to have developed mild to moderate covid symptoms for a couple of days.  As blood clotting is one of the very rare side effects of covid I suspect in very rare cases it's possible that the AZ vaccine could cause one but it doesn't seem to be any more common than in day-to-day life.  They've basically chosen to give Pfizer to anyone under 40 anyway, so would you not consider that safe enough to take (assuming you haven't)?  Even without death, covid can make young people who don't take proper precautions or are just unlucky very ill, as my 27 year-old mate almost went to intensive care a few months ago, so getting to herd immunity as quickly as possible by vaccination seems a necessity, almost a duty imo.

Edited May 25, 2021 by sharkyvilla

[chrisp65]

16 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I accept, more than many I’d suggest right now, that blood clotting occurs with or without a jab. My partners brother in law dropped dead at 52 two weeks ago from a pulmonary embolism, for the record he had not had the jab.

But as with a lot of things on VT, it’s a very one sided discussion, or even not a discussion at all to consider any alternate concerns or views on the vaccination programme.

I don’t know what’s right or wrong any more, truth or fiction, confidence in these matters would be greatly increased were we not living in an age of smoke and mirrors I think.

To me, and I’m not a mod, I’m not even under the english NHS, but to me this is why it’s important if you want to publicise something you include quotes and sources.

The issue, for me this evening, has been someone making a claim and trying to excuse themselves with the word ‘apparently’ like that is some get out of jail free card. It’s desperately important to get things right, it’s a pandemic, 170,000 dead and it’s quite literally a matter of life and death. So posting that someone healthy dies because they had a jab is disgraceful. To try and cover that off with allegedly / apparently shows, to me, they knew what they were doing.

We know there is a serious side effect for a small number of people and whilst there is a sliding scale of risk depending on age, it is safer for all of us to be vaccinated rather than not. If I was young healthy and pregnant, I’d ask my doctor what my best course of action was.

I wouldn’t be making my decisions based on second hand reports of what it says in some newspapers or on facebook. Apparently.

Edited May 25, 2021 by chrisp65

[sidcow]

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

You have taken my background to attack me and then use a slur against Cypriot people (this is bordeline offensive and racist) its absolutely disgusting and you took a debate too far. Your example is pathetic to try prove a point.

I really have no desire to talk to you anymore after that comment. 

You have totally missed Bick's point. He neither attacked you, nor slurred Cypriots. The whole point was the use of the word apparently - demonstrating how it can be used to spuriously 'validate' outrageous statements. But then, all taxi drivers are racists. Apparently. 

Edited May 25, 2021 by mjmooney

[Davkaus]

You have the patience of a saint, Bicks.

[bannedfromHandV]

4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

To me, and I’m not a mod, I’m not even under the english NHS, but to me this is why it’s important if you want to publicise something you include quotes and sources.

The issue, for me this evening, has been someone making a claim and trying to excuse themselves with the word ‘apparently’ like that is some get out of jail free card. It’s desperately important to get things right, it’s a pandemic, 170,000 dead and it’s quite literally a matter of life and death. So posting that someone healthy dies because they had a jab is disgraceful. To try and cover that off with allegedly / apparently shows, to me, they knew what they were doing.

We know there is a serious side effect for a small number of people and whilst there is a sliding scale of risk depending on age, it is safer for all of us to be vaccinated rather than not. If I was young healthy and pregnant, I’d ask my doctor what my best course of action was.

I wouldn’t be making my decisions based on second hand reports of what it says in some newspapers or on facebook. Apparently.

And I doubt anyone will, it’s not as though it’s the first mention of it, I don’t want to get too drawn in on the particular occurrences in here tonight but bless him, Dem isn’t exactly known for his accurate grammar in his posts on here, and I hope he doesn’t mind my saying that because I like to think he knows that we laugh along with him and not at him as and when it happens.

I have no idea how deliberate the usage of ‘apparently’ was or wasn’t, but I don’t see it as a major insult, if someone posted a story about the Indian variant being 150% times more potent, then added apparently at the end of it, would it elicit the same response I wonder.
 

Here’s a question, let’s say someone on here is hesitant to get the jab for whatever reason, and you along with others encourage them to do so, for whatever undoubtedly bizarre and unlucky reason they die as a result of it.

Where would you stand on that? 

[limpid]

1 minute ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Here’s a question, let’s say someone on here is hesitant to get the jab for whatever reason, and you along with others encourage them to do so, for whatever undoubtedly bizarre and unlucky reason they die as a result of it.

Where would you stand on that? 

Speaking only for myself, I'd be sad for that person and the people they are close to, but confident that my advice had been the best advice I could give based on the currently available data.

At the moment, I'd advise people not to fly, but that is unrelated to the increased likelihood of blood clots.

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

And I doubt anyone will, it’s not as though it’s the first mention of it, I don’t want to get too drawn in on the particular occurrences in here tonight but bless him, Dem isn’t exactly known for his accurate grammar in his posts on here, and I hope he doesn’t mind my saying that because I like to think he knows that we laugh along with him and not at him as and when it happens.

I have no idea how deliberate the usage of ‘apparently’ was or wasn’t, but I don’t see it as a major insult, if someone posted a story about the Indian variant being 150% times more potent, then added apparently at the end of it, would it elicit the same response I wonder.
 

Here’s a question, let’s say someone on here is hesitant to get the jab for whatever reason, and you along with others encourage them to do so, for whatever undoubtedly bizarre and unlucky reason they die as a result of it.

Where would you stand on that? 

There is a much higher chance of me recommending a car in another thread, and that car having a serious crash.

But on covid, i believe the current government advice is that there is some increased risk of an allergic reaction in younger people having the jab.

They estimate that vaccination may have saved about 10,000 lives. However, they also believe that it might have caused blood clots in 242 people. So on a crude level someone like me can understand, there is more chance of the vaccine saving me, than killing me.

But nobody should be taking advice from a messageboard, or a newspaper, or youtube, or facebook.

They should be looking at things like the official guidance, it’s a simple google search away:

242 blood clot cases after 10,000,000 vaccines

Quote

Up to 28 April 2021, the MHRA had received 242 reports of blood clotting cases in people who also had low levels of platelets in the UK, following the use of Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine. These numbers are very small compared to the millions of people who have received the vaccine. The overall incidence of case reports of thromboembolic events with low platelets after first or unknown doses was 10.5 per million doses.

The majority of these extremely rare events occurred after the first dose.

Everybody who has already had a first dose of the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine should receive a second dose of the same jab, irrespective of age, except for the very small number of people who experienced blood clots with low platelet counts from their first vaccination.

Getting the second vaccine dose is very important because it further increases the level of protection against COVID-19.

Professor Wei Shen Lim, COVID-19 Chair for JCVI, said:

Safety remains our number one priority. We have continued to assess the benefit-risk balance of COVID-19 vaccines in light of UK infection rates and the latest information from the MHRA on the extremely rare event of blood clots and low platelet counts following vaccination.

As COVID-19 rates continue to come under control, we are advising that adults aged 18 to 39 years with no underlying health conditions are offered an alternative to the Oxford/AstraZeneca vaccine, if available and if it does not cause delays in having the vaccine. The advice is specific to circumstances in the UK at this time and maximises use of the wide portfolio of vaccines available.

The COVID-19 vaccines have already saved thousands of lives and the benefit for the majority of the population is clear – if you are offered the vaccine, you should take it.

As a precautionary measure, anyone who has the following symptoms from around 4 days to 4 weeks after vaccination is advised to seek prompt medical advice:

a severe headache that is not relieved with painkillers or is getting worse

a headache that feels worse when you lie down or bend over

a headache that is unusual for you and occurs with blurred vision, feeling or being sick, problems speaking, weakness, drowsiness or seizures

a rash that looks like small bruises or bleeding under the skin

shortness of breath, chest pain, leg swelling or persistent abdominal pain

 

 

How would I feel if I persuaded someone to have a vaccination that then killed them?

The same as I would if I persuaded someone the risk was too high, they declined the jab, and died of covid.

It’s why it’s important to understand quoting trustworthy sources of information.

[brommy]

34 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

Here’s a question, let’s say someone on here is hesitant to get the jab for whatever reason, and you along with others encourage them to do so, for whatever undoubtedly bizarre and unlucky reason they die as a result of it.

Where would you stand on that? 

GP’s spend their working days prescribing medicines with possible side effects, some deadly. They do so on the balance of probabilities that the medicine will do more good than harm. The same applies to recommending approved vaccines, COVID-19 or otherwise.

[StefanAVFC]

Once again, this pandemic has shown that humans are atrocious at assessing risk.

[LondonLax]

7 hours ago, fightoffyour said:

The story should be that a woman died of a blood clot after flying on a plane, apparently.

The vaccine causes a specific type of clotting that requires certain conditions to be present in the patient and is unrelated to the usual  causes of blood clotting, so they should be able to tell from the investigation if her death was the result of the vaccine. 

The condition has been labelled Thrombosis with Thrombocytopenia Syndrome (TTS).

In fact the type of blood clotting the vaccine can cause is so different from usual that a patient who has a known risk of blood clotting is no more likely to be affected by this particular vaccine induced clotting and AZ is still considered ok for people with a history of clotting to take (though I would understand if those people are still a little hesitant!) 

The main risk group seems to be people under 40 and particularly women but as yet no one knows why. 
 

There is some more information on TTS here, put out by the Australian government:

Quote

TTS, also known as vaccine induced thrombotic thrombocytopenia (VITT), is a rare newly identified condition with a different mechanism to other causes of thrombosis. Among case reports, there are no known markers for increased risk for TTS/VITT.

The risk of TTS is not likely to be increased in people with the following conditions, and people in these groups can receive COVID-19 Vaccine AstraZeneca:

History of blood clots in typical sites

Increased clotting tendency that is not immune mediated

Family history of blood clots

History of ischaemic heart disease or stroke

Current or past thrombocytopenia (low platelet count)

Those receiving anticoagulation therapy

https://www.health.gov.au/news/joint-statement-from-atagi-and-thanz-on-thrombosis-with-thrombocytopenia-syndrome-tts-and-the-use-of-covid-19-vaccine-astrazeneca

 

Edited May 26, 2021 by LondonLax

[Brumerican]

Well I'm a paranoid sceptic with a very "meh" approach to staying alive but I'm getting my first jab next week.

It's not for me .

It's for Trev.