Marvelous Nakamba

[KentVillan]

6 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Stop with the non sense.

Luiz is more like a box to box like Ji Sung Park, Ballack, Seedorf. He's not a deeplying playmaker like Carrick or Alonso.

You seriously need to watch this guy play. Your way off the mark

Park is just wrong - he was a Duracell bunny, not a technical player like Douglas.

Ballack and Seedorf are closer, but they were both very powerful players who imposed themselves on a game (a bit like Steven Gerrard), lots of drilled long shots and lung busting runs.

I see Douglas as technically much more similar to Alonso, preferring to finesse his passes and shots, but you're right that positionally he likes to get forward more than Alonso.

Anyway, regardless of what his game is now at age 21, there's no doubt Douglas has deep-lying playmaker in his locker. He's very young, and lots of midfielders change role over the course of their career. Seedorf played virtually everywhere in midfield - holding, box-to-box, number 10, wide. Stick Douglas next to a ballwinner and he would grow into a very competent Pirlo/Alonso type player.

[briny_ear]

3 hours ago, Zhan_Zhuang said:

Could not disagree more.

My friends and I have used this term for at least a decade and it has no racial connotation; ask yourself what is a beast and then look it up in the dictionary. I use this term now and again when my eldest son eats all his dinner quickly: "he went Beast Mode".

If you feel like attributing this to a sportsman think Stipe Miocic (a heavyweight fighter in the UFC) or going back further Bas Rutten he was a Beast. Or to go to present fighters Derrick Lewis is the self-professed 'Black Beast', yes he is black!

You can choose how you want to interpret language, as Wittgenstein once proclaimed we get it wrong more often than not!

The basic rule is that the person uttering the words cannot decide whether they are racist or not. The person on the receiving end tells us if they find it racist; we listen, learn, and adjust our behaviour accordingly.

[KentVillan]

3 minutes ago, briny_ear said:

The basic rule is that the person uttering the words cannot decide whether they are racist or not. The person on the receiving end tells us if they find it racist; we listen, learn, and adjust our behaviour accordingly.

No, I'm sorry, there is no rule. We obviously should listen to things people say about their own experiences of racism in good faith, and respond in good faith. But nobody has a blanket right to point at things and say: "this is objectively offensive" and in doing so make it inherently true. That line of argument takes you in absurd directions.

I personally don't think calling well built black players "beasts" or "animals" is a great idea, for all sorts of reasons. But that doesn't mean everyone who says it is being racist by edict of the grievance police.

[Keyblade]

14 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

No, I'm sorry, there is no rule. We obviously should listen to things people say about their own experiences of racism in good faith, and respond in good faith. But nobody has a blanket right to point at things and say: "this is objectively offensive" and in doing so make it inherently true. That line of argument takes you in absurd directions.

I personally don't think calling well built black players "beasts" or "animals" is a great idea, for all sorts of reasons. But that doesn't mean everyone who says it is being racist by edict of the grievance police.

It always just sounds off. There are so many words in the English language for people to choose from. 

[KentVillan]

2 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

It always just sounds off. There are so many words in the English language for people to choose from. 

I agree. I just don't like the subtext of "you don't get to decide if something's racist", which is that some people are arbiters on racism, and some people can't ever be. This is all getting a bit philosophical now, and we are spoiling a good thread about a good player.

To be honest, VillaTalk is superb on this kind of stuff, and a credit to the club. Empathetic and open minded. Be amazed if any other club has a message board with such a consistently high quality of discussion about both football and society.

[Kiwivillan]

1 hour ago, sne said:

I'd have Makelele as the GOAT in that position (can't really say on players before the mid 80's)

Fwiw Seedorf was much more attacking and not really a DCM, Edgar Davids fits the role better with Dutch players from that era IMO

Me too. It seemed to me the CDM role came to prominence as sweeper all but disappeared and he epitomized it. Just had a Google on my timelines and it seems holding midfielder was big in 60s to counter popular withdrawn centre forward in 50s. Football is cyclical for sure

[New_Hope]

'Beast' is just describing a players destructive power towards the opposition that is all....no way offensive or rascist in anyway whatsoever!

[MotoMkali]

7 hours ago, sne said:

I'd have Makelele as the GOAT in that position (can't really say on players before the mid 80's)

Fwiw Seedorf was much more attacking and not really a DCM, Edgar Davids fits the role better with Dutch players from that era IMO

I remember seedorf playing DCM for AC at the end of his career when kaka first broke onto the scene. Probably why I thought he played as a CDM. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, New_Hope said:

'Beast' is just describing a players destructive power towards the opposition that is all....no way offensive or rascist in anyway whatsoever!

i'm waiting for Shaun Goater to come out with a deeply personal PSA about his private battles with Goatism from fans.

" I don't eat grass or neeeaaaahhhh, I was deeply hurt, I was quite literally made.... the Black Sheep.... I was not hungry, so why were people being asked to feed me?".

[villalad21]

7 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Park is just wrong - he was a Duracell bunny, not a technical player like Douglas.

Ballack and Seedorf are closer, but they were both very powerful players who imposed themselves on a game (a bit like Steven Gerrard), lots of drilled long shots and lung busting runs.

I see Douglas as technically much more similar to Alonso, preferring to finesse his passes and shots, but you're right that positionally he likes to get forward more than Alonso.

Anyway, regardless of what his game is now at age 21, there's no doubt Douglas has deep-lying playmaker in his locker. He's very young, and lots of midfielders change role over the course of their career. Seedorf played virtually everywhere in midfield - holding, box-to-box, number 10, wide. Stick Douglas next to a ballwinner and he would grow into a very competent Pirlo/Alonso type player.

I think what we can all agree on is that Luiz is not a DM.

He did not look comfortable there, at all. When Nakamba play there it just look so much more natural for him.

Would love to see Luiz next to McGinn.

[Villan4Life]

 

[briny_ear]

7 hours ago, KentVillan said:

No, I'm sorry, there is no rule. We obviously should listen to things people say about their own experiences of racism in good faith, and respond in good faith. But nobody has a blanket right to point at things and say: "this is objectively offensive" and in doing so make it inherently true. That line of argument takes you in absurd directions.

I personally don't think calling well built black players "beasts" or "animals" is a great idea, for all sorts of reasons. But that doesn't mean everyone who says it is being racist by edict of the grievance police.

Fortunately the club don’t take such a dismissive attitude to racism and are going to investigate the chanting and report any perpetrators to the actual (as opposed to “grievance”) police. We’ll see how successful they might be in defending their actions with an argument like this. 

I don’t know if Nakamba heard and was upset by the chanting but there have been plenty of cases recently where Black players have been immensely upset by racist chanting, to the extent that Jason Sancho said he had thought about giving up the game.

Should we comfort them by telling them they have no “blanket right” to say those chants are offensive and they are just operating as “grievance police”?

Edited October 8, 2019 by briny_ear

[briny_ear]

7 hours ago, KentVillan said:

I agree. I just don't like the subtext of "you don't get to decide if something's racist", which is that some people are arbiters on racism, and some people can't ever be. This is all getting a bit philosophical now, and we are spoiling a good thread about a good player.

To be honest, VillaTalk is superb on this kind of stuff, and a credit to the club. Empathetic and open minded. Be amazed if any other club has a message board with such a consistently high quality of discussion about both football and society.

(a) Offensive racist chants are never really a matter of philosophy - they cause real hurt in the real world 

(b ) the mods closed down a thread specifically about the racist chanting issue (I think) on the basis that it was being discussed here so I guess this is where the conversation must take place.

[MaVilla]

39 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

I think what we can all agree on is that Luiz is not a DM.

He did not look comfortable there, at all. When Nakamba play there it just look so much more natural for him.

Would love to see Luiz next to McGinn.

Yeah I agree he would be best next to Mcginn, so nakamba, Mcginn and Luiz and the midfield 3.

[wilko154]

2 hours ago, New_Hope said:

'Beast' is just describing a players destructive power towards the opposition that is all....no way offensive or racist in anyway whatsoever!

Agreed, I described Wesley as a 'Beast' on Saturday, as I also did against Everton. It's generally a term used when a player puts in a physically dominating performance. Other players in the PL that could be described like this on their day would be Kane, Haller, Wood, Benteke, players capable of holding their own against center backs. You could also use the term for centre backs, i.e. Engels has been a beast in the air this season.

The other common use of 'Beast' would be to describe someone being prolific, for example Aguero, Aubemyang, Pukki, Abraham, Sterling, Vardy could all be classed as a beast in the box so far this season.

In no way is the term used because of the colour of a players skin.

 

There's three main types of racism in football right now,. There's blatant racism seen in Italy and at times in the PL such as Chelsea. There's racial connotations as we've witnessed this week, racism that's not in your face but should by no means be accepted in football. Then there's over hyped racism, where people are viewing things as racism for the sake of it, i.e. the use of beast, people comparing other players due to physical appearance.

 

Glad the club have dealt with this swiftly.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, villalad21 said:

I think what we can all agree on is that Luiz is not a DM.

He did not look comfortable there, at all. When Nakamba play there it just look so much more natural for him.

Would love to see Luiz next to McGinn.

Defo more of a box to box.

Probably better at the attacking portion though?

[villalad21]

19 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Defo more of a box to box.

Probably better at the attacking portion though?

It looks like he enjoy's more going forward than defend.

Just watching him play he looks like box to box to me. Not DM, not a deep lying playmaker.

[Mic09]

34 minutes ago, wilko154 said:

Agreed, I described Wesley as a 'Beast' on Saturday, as I also did against Everton. It's generally a term used when a player puts in a physically dominating performance. Other players in the PL that could be described like this on their day would be Kane, Haller, Wood, Benteke, players capable of holding their own against center backs. You could also use the term for centre backs, i.e. Engels has been a beast in the air this season.

Harry Kane was a beast.

Now he is one of those furry llamas that you get at the petting zoo.

[useless]

Luiz plays as a DM for Brazil and Man City were developing him as a long term replacement for Fernandinho, he's actually played in defence for them in friendlies as well. In some ways reminds me of Petrov because of how technically good he is can play deep or further forward. Have seen City fans compare him to Gündoğan as well. There are that many variations on the 'Deep Midfielder' role that it's not as simple as saying he's not a defensive midfielder or he's not a deep lying midfielder.

[villalad21]

1 minute ago, useless said:

Luiz plays as a DM for Brazil and Man City were developing him as a long term replacement for Fernandinho, he's actually played in defence for them in friendlies as well. In some ways reminds me of Petrov because of how technically good he is can play deep or further forward. Have seen City fans compare him to Gündoğan as well. There are that many variations on the 'Deep Midfielder' role that it's not as simple as saying he's not a defensive midfielder or he's not a deep lying midfielder.

I just can't see it in his game.

When i see Nakamba play it all makes sense to me, the role looks so natural to him.