Indigo Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 1 hour ago, villalad21 said: Stop with the non sense. Luiz is more like a box to box like Ji Sung Park, Ballack, Seedorf. He's not a deeplying playmaker like Carrick or Alonso. You seriously need to watch this guy play. Your way off the mark He's played plenty as a deeper lying midfielder. Plays there for Brazil U-23s, was being talked up as possibly being Fernandinho's understudy had he gotten a work permit, and literally said in an interview when he signed for us that it was his game to take the ball from the back and start moves. He can play and has played in different roles in central midfield but it really isn't nonsense to talk of him as being that sort of player when there's plenty of evidence that points to him being that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
romavillan Posted October 7, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 7, 2019 1 hour ago, LxYoungAVFC said: Thought to myself "James Milner is a beast". First picture I clicked on: James Milner is a total monster. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the_eristic Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 1 hour ago, django said: While we’re getting our house in order though, something I’ve never appreciated is when Benteke or Wesley are described as ‘beasts’. Never heard this about a white player however imposing they are physically. Jon Parkin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 23 minutes ago, villalad21 said: Thanks for reminding me Jones is literally a clown All those pictures there of Jones, all from the same Man Utd goal kick the absolute king of clowns. He's scared of himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspiration Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Keyblade said: I get that you're Jamaican so the rasta comment might not bother you as much (it's still a lazy stereotype though, but I guess a national one...not racial in this case). But why the hell would Marvelous' father be a rasta? He's from Zimbabwe ffs. I'd be offended. Not because I have anything against rastas but that I was simply reduced to the colour of my skin (the only commonality I'd share with a hypothetical Rasta). They couldn't find it in them to sing a single line about my qualities as a player. Just a bunch of stereotypes about me becaue I'm black. Rastafarianism granted is a religion of Jamaican prominence and origin, however it’s a movement of returning to africanism. One of its main prophets so to speak was Ethiopian so the Rasta part isn’t greatly an issue. But again we are all correct, bag of shit chant. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LxYoungAVFC Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, romavillan said: James Milner is a total monster. Absolute animal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspiration Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 30 minutes ago, Indigo said: He's played plenty as a deeper lying midfielder. Plays there for Brazil U-23s, was being talked up as possibly being Fernandinho's understudy had he gotten a work permit, and literally said in an interview when he signed for us that it was his game to take the ball from the back and start moves. He can play and has played in different roles in central midfield but it really isn't nonsense to talk of him as being that sort of player when there's plenty of evidence that points to him being that. Correct. Also the role of a dm is usually quite different in the top teams compared to the rest of the league. For Man City/pool you could argue he’d be perfect as a dm with his ability to spray the ball around for a team with 60%+ possession where out and out defensive ability isn’t as crucial in that role for a team of that ilk as the ability to play passes between the lines. look at Gareth Barry when he left us to city or even when he played for England whilst with us, even though his core position for us was a box to box mid who rarely if ever played as a defensive midfielder, he ALWAYS played dm for England and city because his ball playing ability from deep was more valuable to more dominant teams than his defensive ability or manoeuvrability which at times were suspect, especially considering he started out as a defender. horses for courses is the long and short of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan_of_oz Posted October 7, 2019 VT Supporter Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, villalad21 said: Stop with the non sense. Luiz is more like a box to box like Ji Sung Park, Ballack, Seedorf. He's not a deeplying playmaker like Carrick or Alonso. You seriously need to watch this guy play. Your way off the mark Way off the mark, like when you were saying my actions made racism worse?? I took your silence as an apology so we're all good, but it would've been nice for you to acknowledge that you said something really silly Edited October 7, 2019 by Villan_of_oz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 15 minutes ago, The Inspiration said: Rastafarianism granted is a religion of Jamaican prominence and origin, however it’s a movement of returning to africanism. One of its main prophets so to speak was Ethiopian so the Rasta part isn’t greatly an issue. But again we are all correct, bag of shit chant. I definitely had that in mind, but I can say with some degree of certainty that those idiots didn't know about that. You'd really have to put some thought into it to make that association, and even then the association is extremely tenuous. These geniuses didn't do any thinking beyond "he's black. rastas are black". I mean, rasta doesn't even rhyme with Nakamba at all for one. It's just bone-headedness all around. They really embarrassed us. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Inspiration Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 3 minutes ago, Keyblade said: I definitely had that in mind, but I can say with some degree of certainty that those idiots didn't know about that. You'd really have to put some thought into it to make that association, and even then the association is extremely tenuous. These geniuses didn't do any thinking beyond "he's black. rastas are black". I mean, rasta doesn't even rhyme with Nakamba at all for one. It's just bone-headedness all around. They really embarrassed us. You aren’t wrong mate just playing devils advocate. bunch of clowns 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
New_Hope Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 Ffs let it go and let's concentrate on discussing the player and his impact on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zhan_Zhuang Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 3 hours ago, django said: While we’re getting our house in order though, something I’ve never appreciated is when Benteke or Wesley are described as ‘beasts’. Never heard this about a white player however imposing they are physically. Could not disagree more. My friends and I have used this term for at least a decade and it has no racial connotation; ask yourself what is a beast and then look it up in the dictionary. I use this term now and again when my eldest son eats all his dinner quickly: "he went Beast Mode". If you feel like attributing this to a sportsman think Stipe Miocic (a heavyweight fighter in the UFC) or going back further Bas Rutten he was a Beast. Or to go to present fighters Derrick Lewis is the self-professed 'Black Beast', yes he is black! You can choose how you want to interpret language, as Wittgenstein once proclaimed we get it wrong more often than not! Edited October 7, 2019 by Zhan_Zhuang 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, Zhan_Zhuang said: Could not disagree more. My friends and I have used this term for at least a decade and it has no racial connotation; ask yourself what is a beast and then look it up in the dictionary. I use this term now and again when my eldest son eats all his dinner quickly: "he went Beast Mode". If you feel like attributing this to a sportsman think Stipe Miocic (a heavyweight fighter in the UFC) or going back further Based Rotten he was a Beast. Or to go to present fighters Derrick Lewis is the self-professed 'Black Beast', yes he is black! You can choose how you want to interpret language, as Wittgenstein once proclaimed we get it wrong more often than not! completely agree with this, i have heard many people called "beasts", and it never had/has a racial context, i have used it numerous times to describe someone, and all it ever implies for me is someone is determined, powerful, strong, aggressive etc etc. I am all for stopping racism or similar form of derogatory things, but i also think a lot of people can be over sensitive and pick on things that are clearly nothing to do with race or other slurs. Granted a minority may use the word in a racial way, but they are the minority, the word "he's a beast" is a compliment to someone, regardless of skin colour, ethnicity or other criteria, and you cant ban or attempt to stop people using a word because a tiny minority may mis-use it, if we did that half of the words in our language would be banned because a minority of idiots mis-use them. For me, Wesley can be a beast when it suits him, i would describe Khabib Nurmagomedov as a beast, G.St-Pierre was a bit of a beast in his day, Brock Lesner was a beast, Amanda Nunes is prob a beast (or the female version of it?!). Now, people like McGregor and Anderson Silva, i would say both were extremely talented, but i wouldnt call either a "beast", as both were more about finesse than brute force, strength etc. Another example, Zabit Magomedsharipov, for me one of the most talented fighters on the planet currently, but i wouldn't call him a beast, because although he is hugely talented, he isnt a "beast", he doesnt have the physicality or pure scary power/strength to be classed as a "beast" imo, but regardless, hes still something special, just in a different way. So really, beast just implies a personality trait(s) coupled with some physical trait(s), and those traits can be present in any skin colour or ethnicity. We cant let the funny farm inhabitants ruin any and all words, if we do we will end up grunting to avoid any upset because one fool believes a word means something it doesnt. Edited October 7, 2019 by MaVilla Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keener window-cleaner Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 What a fantastic signing this was, what do you think, he must at least have doubled his value already? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 9 minutes ago, Keener window-cleaner said: What a fantastic signing this was, what do you think, he must at least have doubled his value already? yeah, wonderful player, i think its going to be difficult to pick my favourite of the new signings........so many good signings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 (edited) 6 hours ago, Keyblade said: I definitely see where you're coming from, it's always a little awkward seeing comparisons to completely different types of players. But can you think of any white defensive midfielders of recent times comparable to Marvelous? Maybe Gattuso? But Marv has got more technical ability than he ever had. Honestly can't think of any top white destroyer types in recent times, certainly not in the PL. I personally think the Gana comparison is pretty apt. Kante not as much, N'Didi even less. Makalele is brought up a lot because as mentioned he's the gold standard for the position. Just like attacking left backs are the next Ashley Coles or goal scoring midfielders are the next Lampard etc. It just so happens that a lot of the best DMs are black. I don't think it's as lazy a comparison as say when every tall black striker is the new Drogba for example. Best one ever is viera. The best one since him to do it in the prem is Kante and gueye was pretty great too. Obviously you would compare them especially considering gueye, kante and nakamba all have a lot more strength than their frame would suggest. Edited October 7, 2019 by MotoMkali Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 20 minutes ago, MotoMkali said: Best one ever is viera. The best one since him to do it in the prem is Kante and gueye was pretty great too. Obviously you would compare them especially considering gueye, kante and nakamba all have a lot more strength than their frame would suggest. Makalele and Essien also amazing Essien less so after his knee injuries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MotoMkali Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 Just now, sne said: Makalele and Essien also amazing Essien less so after his knee injuries. Sadly I haven't been around long enough to know a huge amount about either of them. You know viera is the best CDM the same way you know cruyf was the best CAM ever. But when it comes fown to it the best CDM's I can think of aren't white. Seedorf is another and you have got players like fernandinho, John obi mikel (never brilliant but started for 5-8 years at what was the best English club at the time). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwivillan Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 15 minutes ago, sne said: Makalele and Essien also amazing Essien less so after his knee injuries. Makalele 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 7, 2019 Share Posted October 7, 2019 5 minutes ago, MotoMkali said: Sadly I haven't been around long enough to know a huge amount about either of them. You know viera is the best CDM the same way you know cruyf was the best CAM ever. But when it comes fown to it the best CDM's I can think of aren't white. Seedorf is another and you have got players like fernandinho, John obi mikel (never brilliant but started for 5-8 years at what was the best English club at the time). I'd have Makelele as the GOAT in that position (can't really say on players before the mid 80's) Fwiw Seedorf was much more attacking and not really a DCM, Edgar Davids fits the role better with Dutch players from that era IMO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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