rodders0223 Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 27 minutes ago, weedman said: I do love VT sometimes, we all gush over the fantastic football we play, the quick tempo one touch passing from the back football, but as soon as one of the players has a pass intercepted it's all "why wouldn't he just clear it?!" Its crazy, he doesn't just hack the ball clear every time because if he did it would be terrible for our game and Smith would replace him with someone that plays exactly like Mings does now. To play the football we play it requires taking risks at the back, Mings is our defender that does that, Konsa doesn't, so Konsa can focus on defending, obviously that will lead to him giving the ball away every now and then. We gain much more than we lose from this tactic which is why Smith will never try and change the way Mings plays, he's literally perfect for our style Which is fair if we were playing out from goal kicks and as a collective unit it was breaking down or he was on the receiving end of suicide balls. He doesn't lose possession here though. It's 30 yards up the field when he is way way too casual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted January 29, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Ben said: Take the first goal for example. Should of cleared it and they score from the corner, that will not show up in the stats and a mistake from mings so every time a corner is conceded it counts as a mistake in your eyes? it's hardly like he's sliced the ball and it's gone behind, it was a run of the mill tussle with the attacker (who was fouling mings in the process by pulling his shirt) and it was one of those things where it could've gone either way. he was seeing the ball out the way any CB should do this is why people believe he's being scapegoated...it wasn't a mistake, far from it, but it's being called one Edited January 29, 2021 by tomav84 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 4 minutes ago, Ben said: Take the first goal for example. Should of cleared it and they score from the corner, that will not show up in the stats and a mistake from mings It wasn't a mistake from Mings. It was very difficult to clear it safely from the position he was in - he was battling with Wood who managed to get a corner out of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 Just now, tomav84 said: so every time a corner is conceded it counts as a mistake in your eyes? it's hardly like he's sliced the ball and it's gone behind, it was a run of the mill tussle with the attacker (who was fouling mings in the process but pulling his shirt) and it was one of those things where it could've gone either way. he was seeing the ball out the way any CB should do this is why people believe he's being scapegoated...it wasn't a mistake, far from it, but it's being called one No that's been ridiculous, In that instance he should if dealth with it better, he didn't and they scored. Im not blaming us loosing in Mings as he has been excellent but if he cut out the sloppy defending he would be much better, Now what is wrong with sayin that, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okonokos Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, Ben said: Take the first goal for example. Should of cleared it and they score from the corner, that will not show up in the stats and a mistake from mings That was good defending. What else would you want him to do in that position? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sparrow1988 Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 17 minutes ago, Okonokos said: 100% correct. Every player makes mistakes. Even Grealish misplaces passes sometimes. But when Mings does, it's more likely to be in a dangerous part of the pitch due to his position than say Watkins. Doesn't mean he gives it away any more than any other player does and he's more likely to than Konsa because of the differences you highlighted. There's definitely an eagerness to blame him. I heard someone compare possession football to walking to on a two foot wide path. You do it at ground level (in this case in the oppositions half), it's easy becuase if you step off that path you step on the ground next to the path (no consequences). You do it say on a ridge connecting two mountains with a sheer 1000 ft drop on either side (around your area) and that task suddenly carries a lot more risk. It's no more difficult but the consequences of getting it wrong are orders of magnitude more serious. Mings is being asked to perform a relatively simple task but under a lot more pressure with serious consequences if he gets it wrong. The best CB's in the world also mess this up from time to time. It benefits our game more than it harms it. If Mings was taking it on himself to do this repeatedly then he would be whipped off the pitch ASAP. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted January 29, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 minute ago, Ben said: No that's been ridiculous, In that instance he should if dealth with it better, he didn't and they scored. Im not blaming us loosing in Mings as he has been excellent but if he cut out the sloppy defending he would be much better, Now what is wrong with sayin that, agree to disagree i believe fans like you are looking for faults that simply are not there. i also believe that if that had been any other defender that they wouldn't have had a mistake called out for it. he did what any defender should do, try and shield the ball out for a goal kick, rather than hoof into touch and keep the pressure on us. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) Typical Mings range of passing. Square to Cash/Konsa Hoof down left wing Or the classic, Back to goalkeeper Don't think I've ever seen him carry the ball out of defence and thread a simple ball to Luiz or McGinn to try and make something creative happen. Edited January 29, 2021 by Kingman 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 2 minutes ago, tomav84 said: agree to disagree i believe fans like you are looking for faults that simply are not there. i also believe that if that had been any other defender that they wouldn't have had a mistake called out for it. he did what any defender should do, try and shield the ball out for a goal kick, rather than hoof into touch and keep the pressure on us. I don't look for faults in our players games, simply want us to keep improving, Like I said he has been excellent and would be even better if he cut out some sloppy mistakes, I really don't understand what the problem is with saying that, Every player has aspects of their game that you would say if they cut that out or done this they would improve, Again I will say it, he has been excellent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Zen Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 5 minutes ago, Kingman said: Typical Mings range of passing. Square to Cash/Konsa Hoof down left wing Or the classic, Back to goalkeeper Don't think I've ever seen him carry the ball out of defence and thread a simple ball to Luiz or McGinn to try and make something creative happen. For real? He does that all the time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okonokos Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, Kingman said: Typical Mings range of passing. Square to Cash/Konsa Hoof down left wing Or the classic, Back to goalkeeper Don't think I've ever seen him carry the ball out of defence and thread a simple ball to Luiz or McGinn to try and make something creative happen. He literally did exactly that against Newcastle. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lochheads twin Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 We have to remember what we are trying to achieve her. We want to improve the player and improve the defence. Recall what a shambles the whole defence was less than 12 months ago. Mings is still a "rough diamond". He has all the physical attributes to be a very good defender. He is the leader of this group of defenders. I am sure whenever we concede goals both the player and the group go over and over what went wrong and how could we have done better. You would think with both John Terry and Dean as mentors he has to keep improving. If not, as this club moves forward a replacement will be brought in. We have a tough game on Saturday night, let hope the defence (and those immediately in front of them) have had a wake up call and put in a solid performance. Onwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomav84 Posted January 29, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 29, 2021 6 minutes ago, Ben said: I don't look for faults in our players games, simply want us to keep improving, Like I said he has been excellent and would be even better if he cut out some sloppy mistakes, I really don't understand what the problem is with saying that, Every player has aspects of their game that you would say if they cut that out or done this they would improve, Again I will say it, he has been excellent the problem is that few would consider conceding that corner as a mistake but he's being lambasted for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Okonokos Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 Just now, tomav84 said: the problem is that few would consider conceding that corner as a mistake but he's being lambasted for it No way would that be considered a mistake if Cash or Konsa did it. Not a chance in hell. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) 29 minutes ago, Ben said: Take the first goal for example. Should of cleared it and they score from the corner, that will not show up in the stats and a mistake from mings see this is what i have a problem with if you see mings conceding the corner as a mings mistake thats fine, personally i dont, he was trying to shield the ball out of play which was the right thing to do, there was good defending in there to win the ball, he didnt want to simply boot it out for a throw in, it was good play by the burnley attacker to somehow play it off mings so we've conceded a corner.... we then have the zonal marking issue which leads to luiz and barkley marking mee and i think tarkowski, barkley lets his man go so luiz has 2 vs 1, Mee beats luiz to the ball it is not mings giving the corner away that is the problem...the stats also wont show barkley and luiz's contributions to that goal which was worse than what mings did Edited January 29, 2021 by villa4europe 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post blandy Posted January 29, 2021 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted January 29, 2021 35 minutes ago, lexicon said: So not actually fact-based, though? It's observation based. I don't get the level of criticism aimed at TM at all. It's completely, ludicrously OTT. But, the observation that he risks or does actually sometimes lose the ball in bad positions due to over-confidence/bad decision making/sloppiness/call it what you will is, IMO, valid. It's the one thing he needs to improve upon to go from a very good defender to a international class one. Rio Ferdinand went through the same thing. John Stones too. It's OK, it's part of getting better and of Premier League experience. The other comment is that Mings/Konsa is a partnership and much of Konsa's improvement from when he came to where he is now is down to the talking and game guidance that TM provides. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ben Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, villa4europe said: see this is what i have a problem with if you see mings conceding the corner as a mings mistake thats fine, personally i dont, he was trying to shield the ball out of play which was the right thing to do, there was good defending in there to win the ball, he didnt want to simply boot it out for a throw in, it was good play by the burnley attacker to somehow play it off mings so we've conceded a corner.... we then have the zonal marking issue which leads to luiz and barkley marking mee and i think tarkowski, barkley lets his man go so luiz has 2 vs 1, Mee beats luiz to the ball it is not mings giving the corner away that is the problem...the stats also wont show barkley and luiz's contributions to that goal which was worse than what mings did Agree we should ditch that way of defending and have our better defenders on their main treat's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sulberto21 Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 23 minutes ago, Ben said: Agree we should ditch that way of defending and have our better defenders on their main treat's. With all due respect our defending hasn't been a problem all season. Barkley let his man run even if he walked with him that goal doesn't happen. If Mings picks up one of those two it means Luiz has to have that zone. Another point is the way they blocked Emi we should have been a bit better in that regard and cleared the way for him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 13 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said: With all due respect our defending hasn't been a problem all season. Barkley let his man run even if he walked with him that goal doesn't happen. If Mings picks up one of those two it means Luiz has to have that zone. Another point is the way they blocked Emi we should have been a bit better in that regard and cleared the way for him. thats the main thing for me, we have our best defenders stood as the zonal markers and then some of our weakest as the man markers, that to me doesnt make sense agree with your other point too, as much as we like to moan about mings our defence has made an incredible leap this year compared to last, we dont have a bad defence so the notion that we have to do something or change something isnt that simple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan-scott Posted January 29, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 29, 2021 I know this doesn’t tell the full story, but... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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