lexicon Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 hour ago, blandy said: It's observation based. I don't get the level of criticism aimed at TM at all. It's completely, ludicrously OTT. But, the observation that he risks or does actually sometimes lose the ball in bad positions due to over-confidence/bad decision making/sloppiness/call it what you will is, IMO, valid. It's the one thing he needs to improve upon to go from a very good defender to a international class one. Rio Ferdinand went through the same thing. John Stones too. It's OK, it's part of getting better and of Premier League experience. The other comment is that Mings/Konsa is a partnership and much of Konsa's improvement from when he came to where he is now is down to the talking and game guidance that TM provides. I find that to be a very subjective area tbh, as it can lead to claims that are just not backed up by fact. Stats are definitely not the be-all and end-all but I find it's useful to look at them to help confirm or deny particular thoughts I might have about a player. When you read things like 'X gives it away all the time' and you see the actual numbers refute that, you can see the subjectivity very clearly and I find the doubling down in the guise of unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence to be incredibly irksome. That said, there's a lot of nuance to the game and some things you can only really pick up from carefully watching a player/game and seeing the impact he has. Watkins is a prime example of that IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 29, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 minute ago, lexicon said: I find that to be a very subjective area tbh, as it can lead to claims that are just not backed up by fact. Stats are definitely not the be-all and end-all but I find it's useful to look at them to help confirm or deny particular thoughts I might have about a player. When you read things like 'X gives it away all the time' and you see the actual numbers refute that, you can see the subjectivity very clearly and I find the doubling down in the guise of unsubstantiated anecdotal evidence to be incredibly irksome. That said, there's a lot of nuance to the game and some things you can only really pick up from carefully watching a player/game and seeing the impact he has. Watkins is a prime example of that IMO. Sure. There's a difference between "Mings gives the ball away all the time" which is verifiably untrue, and "I've observed a number of occasions where Mings has been avoidably caught on the ball in a dangerous position, this season". I guess there may be a stat for that somewhere, but I'd wager that it happens perhaps once, most games, from watching them. Often nothing comes of it, or he might win it back, or a team mate may rescue the situation, and sure, it's not only him that does it - Jack's done it a handful of times with wayward passes as well. It's part of the game that players make mistakes. But the initial post and observation are (IMO) definitely correct, or match my observations, at least. It's something that can and should be improved, and I think it will be, because our coaching team are undoubtedly aware of it and will be on to the players to improve decision making and when to play safe and when/where to (not) take risks. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post SuperTed Posted January 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted January 29, 2021 49 minutes ago, villan-scott said: I know this doesn’t tell the full story, but... Why am I annoyed that we’re just a purple spot? 5 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villan-scott Posted January 29, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted January 29, 2021 21 minutes ago, SuperTed said: Why am I annoyed that we’re just a purple spot? Definitely should be a lion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, blandy said: Sure. There's a difference between "Mings gives the ball away all the time" which is verifiably untrue, and "I've observed a number of occasions where Mings has been avoidably caught on the ball in a dangerous position, this season". I guess there may be a stat for that somewhere, but I'd wager that it happens perhaps once, most games, from watching them. Often nothing comes of it, or he might win it back, or a team mate may rescue the situation, and sure, it's not only him that does it - Jack's done it a handful of times with wayward passes as well. It's part of the game that players make mistakes. But the initial post and observation are (IMO) definitely correct, or match my observations, at least. It's something that can and should be improved, and I think it will be, because our coaching team are undoubtedly aware of it and will be on to the players to improve decision making and when to play safe and when/where to (not) take risks. Its true Pete, that every player make mistakes, but when they have a direct impact on a goal, they get less tolerable. That Burnley game was a clear indication of sloppy mistakes, directly resulting in Goals. I understand and accept that some claims are not substantiated by factual stats, but I still prefer to watch a game and make my judgement.....as just one observation, headers.....lets talk about headers. I don't think we are particularly gifted of taking advantage of this controversial art.....both up front, at the back or in the middle....Lets just focus on the middle for now, its opportunity to launch attacks, if balls are picked up, its an opportunity to gain pitch territory, and most of all to send a message that we are not afraid of the physical challenge, in short it sets a tone.....it also denies the opposition from gaining ground or launching an attack. Up front, we rarely look like causing confusion in the air, few back post offerings, next No near post attempts and very few goals scored from corners....most are scored from the middle of the goal with feet. At the back, umpteen times have we conceded at the Back post and players like Vestergaard, Soucek, Mee, Woods & co have a field day......We have one first teamer with height to realistically challenge for a high ball, and he can't be in 2 places at once. Mings did have woods originally for their 3rd goal and left him for Targett, they was tussling at one stage before McNeill launched his unhindered ( training ground) cross...why he moved away from their most dangerous aerial player, only he can answer. I am not going to go in to the why's and where for's on practicing heading, but for me it is a weakness of ours for a variety of reasons.....if we can't head the ball with any proficiency, then we need to push or cajole..... at present its far too easy for teams like Burnley and West Ham to bully us, particularly in the air. In Mings.... I am totally against any player, getting abuse, they all want to win as much as we do.....and we have to remember, they win together and lose together.....scapegoating, is not the way forward, especially for a team who is cementing itself as everyones second team. Finally, I would suspect, the simplicity of Burnleys come back is whats miffed everyone ( especially how hard they made us work for our 2 goals)and the fundamentals of the conceding is what is significant......We have to work at this stuff, its all we can do. We have to be ready for Vestergaard,( if he is playing) in this next encounter, these simple headers have to stop. Edited January 29, 2021 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 @TRO - In terms of up front, we've scored the joint third most headed goals in the league this year. https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/att_hd_goal 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, lexicon said: @TRO - In terms of up front, we've scored the joint third most headed goals in the league this year. https://www.premierleague.com/stats/top/clubs/att_hd_goal Thanks. Ok, I said the stats might be against me.....it's just how it looks to me, at times....but it doesn't mention headed duels as a whole, though does it?..which is what concerns me. Look, we are a super,super side right now and everyone country wide see us as their second team.....pundits saying they love to watch us. Its Great but we are susceptible to sucker punches.......I am not in to castigating players, or witch hunts, just between ourselves folk, who always love the club, looking for a few answers....but I think we can learn some things from Burnley. I have to say, I though DarrenM wrote a good piece in the Ratings section. Edited January 29, 2021 by TRO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 Just now, TRO said: Ok, I said the stats might be against me.....it's just how it looks to me at times. Look, we are a super,super side right now and everyone country wide see us as their second team.....pundits saying they love to watch us. Its Great but we are susceptible to sucker punches.......I am not in to castigating players, or witch hunts, just between ourselves folk, who always love the club, looking for a few answers....but I think we can learn some things from Burnley. I have to say, I though DarrenM wrote a good piece in the Ratings section. But it's factual, mate - we're dealing with pure numbers here and when you talk about us being comparatively poor in the air, it just doesn't really reflect the evidence. - We've scored the third most goals from headers - We've conceded the joint third fewest goals in the league - We've kept the 2nd most clean sheets Burnley are an anomaly nowadays and we shouldn't look to change what we're doing to match up against players like Chris Wood, because we face them so rarely. We need to keep doing what we're doing because it's working - in the reverse fixture against Burnley we shut them out completely too, they didn't have a sniff. In fact, if you consider the Burnley attack - they've only scored 13 goals this season, 20 fewer than us. And their defence has conceded more goals. If we're talking about what to do, we need to be more clinical with all of our chances - we needn't worry about our heading IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 7 minutes ago, lexicon said: But it's factual, mate - we're dealing with pure numbers here and when you talk about us being comparatively poor in the air, it just doesn't really reflect the evidence. - We've scored the third most goals from headers - We've conceded the joint third fewest goals in the league - We've kept the 2nd most clean sheets Burnley are an anomaly nowadays and we shouldn't look to change what we're doing to match up against players like Chris Wood, because we face them so rarely. We need to keep doing what we're doing because it's working - in the reverse fixture against Burnley we shut them out completely too, they didn't have a sniff. In fact, if you consider the Burnley attack - they've only scored 13 goals this season, 20 fewer than us. And their defence has conceded more goals. If we're talking about what to do, we need to be more clinical with all of our chances - we needn't worry about our heading IMO. I respectfully disagree, with just some of that, some I agree with.....I am still of the opinion 2 goals away to Burnley is enough, and that anymore is high expectation....2 goals every game (76)would take us to possibly 3rd in the league, at seasons end...hypothetical, but we are scoring enough as a rule.....Turfmoor has only seen 13 goals all season..... 2 was plenty....you are barking up the wrong tree. Your point about shuting them out at home, is the evidence that we failed the same discipline to defend on the day and 2 headed goals was the main culprit. I accept the clean sheets record....The headed goals for are not really as a result of headed duels, they are just free headers, not with power, just with positioning......i am not complaining with that, just offering perspective. On your second point...I am talking about headers exclusively, just off the top of my head, i can think of Bowen, Mee, Woods, Vestergaard, Soucek....its not just Burnley, I wish it was. But I accept, that we don't have to, or want to change our style.....but if we want to improve our points tally and climb the league, we have to eliminate the fundamental flaws ( that are avoidable in some cases, with better application) Next time we play, just study and focus how many headed duels we win outfield, from throw ins etc, it may be a sideshow to some, I think it spells taking control....opportunities to seize the initiative and avoid/nullify counter attacks. I am one of those folk that agree that the ball should stay on the floor, but aerial work does have a major impact on games too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 29, 2021 Share Posted January 29, 2021 I hate to do this again @TRO but we're joint third for the most aerial duels won in the league - https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/8228/Stages/18685/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2020-2021 However, I don't think it's that important a stat and can illustrate it thusly: Man City are top of the league with the best goal difference, most clean sheets, fewest goals conceded - they are third bottom of the aerial duels won table. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted January 29, 2021 Moderator Share Posted January 29, 2021 1 hour ago, lexicon said: Man City are top of the league with the best goal difference, most clean sheets, fewest goals conceded - they are third bottom of the aerial duels won table. That's entirely logical and backs up the point about stats having to be used not in isolation. Because Man City have a lot of possession and when they've got the ball they play almost exclusively on the ground (at least compared to other sides), so there will be fewer aerial challenges in their games, so statistically you'd expect them to win the fewest aerial duels, because they get into the fewest, not that they're no good at them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 9 hours ago, lexicon said: I hate to do this again @TRO but we're joint third for the most aerial duels won in the league - https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/252/Tournaments/2/Seasons/8228/Stages/18685/TeamStatistics/England-Premier-League-2020-2021 However, I don't think it's that important a stat and can illustrate it thusly: Man City are top of the league with the best goal difference, most clean sheets, fewest goals conceded - they are third bottom of the aerial duels won table. "Lies, Damn Lies and statistics" 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaAlex Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Given the criticism he gets, some rightfully at times, he was superb today. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 He was brilliant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MattVillaPortsmouth Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Just now, VillaAlex said: Given the criticism he gets, some rightfully at times, he was superb today. Couldn’t agree more, peeps quick to jump on for any (perceived) mistake but was brilliant today (especially liked the celebrating a block) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Colossal. Kindly be quiet with your criticism tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 What a player. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC44 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Just one risky pass back to Martinez but apart from that superb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villalad21 Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 Good today. No mistakes. More of that please and i will stop criticize. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted January 30, 2021 Share Posted January 30, 2021 3 minutes ago, AVFC44 said: Just one risky pass back to Martinez but apart from that superb. Martinez approached it very weirdly tbf - should have come to it quicker. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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