Dean Smith

[Dave-R]

13 minutes ago, TRO said:

Its a tricky one.

I don't think its Dean Smith, put it that way.....If you listen to all the top managers, they all come back to the same conclusion, what ever they do.....they need to players to be able to do it.

Top managers only go to other top clubs for one reason, yes money, but to work with the elite.....I can't remember the last Top manager going to a lowly club to test himself..they go to the places where their philosophies are executed.

Managers have to basically get 2 things right.

• Player recruitment/ talent spotting
• Coaching

as the saying goes you can't make a silk purse our of a sows ear.

Dean has inherited another managers players, I will purposely avoid the word mess, because the summer was a car crash and losing Johnstone, Snoddy and Terry was a massive blow to the character of the team and the substance that we built on....the CLUB was then in no position to replace them.

I am not defending Steve Bruce unconditionally,  because I did not like the style of football we played and to be honest, some of his traits are still there, many of our players still stood off and failed to impose themselves, didn't close down often enough.

so yes, I do think its a player problem, in balance and attitude, not all but some and that some may be too many....any team can get away with a couple of iffy players, we have too many to cover...but i also thought that with Steve Bruce in charge, except he bought them.

Tammy, McGinn and Jack when he is playing are the only players you can hang your hat on....for any team with promotion ambitions that's simply not enough.

Mark has mooted in an earlier post, with the names we have in our squad, we should be storming it.....I think he is right, but we are getting out fought, out battled and overrun by players of a lesser quality in terms of talent, but a superior quality in terms of application and will to win.

The signs were there against the Blues....we haven't won at home since.

You can only take the horse to the water, you can't make him drink.

I think Dean needs his own type of player......as a reference : Neil Warnock was lucky when he went in to Cardiff in as much he had the right characters there already ,not great on talent, but effective in this league.... so he could make the difference with his traditional approach, it was a match made in heaven for him.

Dean is not so lucky, he has names, but very short on substance.....He has to build it himself, I hope he gets it right.

 

That's perfect, brilliantly put to the point no one needs to say anything else lol, it's so rite and true.

Cheers TRO

Edited January 22, 2019 by Dave-R

[markavfc40]

8 hours ago, villalad21 said:

And yet we managed to get into a play off final as recent as last season, sorry but i don't buy it.

Bruce left us in a defensive mess this season, that should be sorted in the summer. Next season top 6 should be a minimum requirement, i'm not joining this lowering expectation train some fans on here have bought a ticket for. 

We did make the play off final but as soon as the full time whistle went four of the starters that day left the club. Of those that started who remain two of them are 34+, and another three are 30+. That squad much like this seasons was built on a foundation of loan players and players that are on their way down and way past their best. We have a foundation of sand just as we have had over the last few years as there has been no long term planning just quick fixes.

We can't go on like this. The last three years have shown that short term planning in the hope of promotion isn't working. It is time to take a step back and rebuild with a mixture of the best of our home grown players and bringing in players that are young and hungry who have their best years in front of them not behind.

It may well be that during this process we have to lower our expectations and not see promotion as the be all and end all. As long as we can see progress being made and a younger, hungrier squad evolving then I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

What won't help that process is if whilst we are rebuilding supporters start calling for the managers head or getting on the players backs. We will have to be patient and trust that a longer term plan based on stronger foundations will eventually reap the rewards that quick fixes for three years haven't.

Edited January 22, 2019 by markavfc40

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

What won't help that process is if whilst we are rebuilding supporters start calling for the managers head or getting on the players backs.

Let’s be honest. When we’re not winning games that isn’t going to happen. 

[tomav84]

3 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

We did make the play off final but as soon as the full time whistle went four of the starters that day left the club. Of those that started who remain two of them are 34+, and another three are 30+. That squad much like this seasons is built on a foundation of loan players and players that are on their way down and way past their best. We have a foundation of sand just as we have had over the last few years as there has been no long term planning just quick fixes.

We can't go on like this. The last three years have shown that short term planning in the hope of promotion isn't working. It is time to take a step back and rebuild with a mixture of the best of our home grown players and bringing in players that are young and hungry who have their best years in front of them not behind.

It may well be that during this process we have to lower our expectations and not see promotion as the be all and end all. As long as we can see progress being made and a younger, hungrier squad evolving then I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that. 

What won't help that process is if whilst we are rebuilding supporters start calling for the managers head or getting on the players backs. We will have to be patient and trust that a longer term plan based on stronger foundations will eventually reap the rewards that quick fixes for three years haven't.

great post and i dont see why anyone would have a problem with that either...many will do though I'm afraid. unfortunately not making top 6 will always be seen as failure for some, regardless of who's in the dugout and who's on the pitch.

[Mazrim]

The squad are a mixbag of players that are crap. Players that are past it. Players that are good. Players that are are excellent. Players that are injured. Players that are gutless. Players that are lazy...

I can't be arsed to draw a Venn diagram but basically there are too many in certain groups to progress and we need to change it asap.

And as for comparisons to last season. I reckon there are still as many crap players in that squad, its just that certain players Terry, Grealish, Snodgrass etc are not around to carry the others. Just having Grealish and Axel back would make a huge difference. It's not Smiths fault he doesn't have them, just bad luck. When we did have them, we were playing some great stuff. We just can't cope without certain players and we won't until we get them back or get new ones.

There isnt a manager in the world who could get a tune out of Taylor, Whelan, Hutton, Hourihane etc. They're just poor.

[bannedfromHandV]

12 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

We did make the play off final but as soon as the full time whistle went four of the starters that day left the club. Of those that started who remain two of them are 34+, and another three are 30+. That squad much like this seasons was built on a foundation of loan players and players that are on their way down and way past their best. We have a foundation of sand just as we have had over the last few years as there has been no long term planning just quick fixes.

We can't go on like this. The last three years have shown that short term planning in the hope of promotion isn't working. It is time to take a step back and rebuild with a mixture of the best of our home grown players and bringing in players that are young and hungry who have their best years in front of them not behind.

It may well be that during this process we have to lower our expectations and not see promotion as the be all and end all. As long as we can see progress being made and a younger, hungrier squad evolving then I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

What won't help that process is if whilst we are rebuilding supporters start calling for the managers head or getting on the players backs. We will have to be patient and trust that a longer term plan based on stronger foundations will eventually reap the rewards that quick fixes for three years haven't.

First part - yes

Second part - no

 

The players only started to play on Saturday once the crowd turned on them around 40 minutes in.

Edited January 22, 2019 by bannedfromHandV

[markavfc40]

5 hours ago, bannedfromHandV said:

First part - yes

Second part - no

 

The players only started to play on Saturday once the crowd turned on them around 40 minutes in.

If we are as I suspect we are going to go down the route of a mixture of the best of players that have come through our youth system and bringing in younger players then the last thing they will need is us as fans getting on their backs. One of the reasons Bruce cited for bringing in the likes of Terry, Whelan, Snodgrass, Elmo is that they had the experience and they could handle that pressure and expectation that comes with playing for Aston Villa in the Championship.

I actually think as supporters if we do see a much younger team on the pitch we will naturally allow them far more slack than we do seeing the old guard in Hutton, Taylor, Whelan, Bjarnason, Adomah, Jedinak,Chester etc churning out the same old crap. 

We start getting on the back of younger players then you risk them going into their shells and the ball becoming a hot potato something we have seen at this club before. We have to be patient.

Edited January 22, 2019 by markavfc40

[Demitri_C]

3 hours ago, Merson08 said:

This season we need to have a real go for promotion! This is likely to be our last decent shot at it for a few seasons I fear.

Dean Smith's appointment as manager is going to be a pivotal moment in Aston Villa history, one way or the other. We could lose all "these experienced" old players and the result being next season we end up with players from the Irish League 1, League One, League Two or from some sub par european division. We could turn profit on a few players which would be against the grain and business model that we currently operate. If it all goes wrong we can end up with a major rebuilding process of the entire team which could cement our place in the lower leagues for the foreseeable.

For every negative theres a positive.

We could sign these cheap players, turn over millions of profit on players, and get promoted. Dean Smith becomes Villa Park legend. 

Either way Smith is going to have a direct impact on Aston Villa like none before him.....

Not really none of the last three seasons we have competed .even last year we got no where near the the top two. 

Every year it's been catchup. We start shit then always chasing.  I think that's been the biggest issue.

[TRO]

44 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Can individuals errors be down to coaching? We can get everyone behind the ball like Bruce did and attempt to scrap our way to promotion but odds on we’d come unstuck against a more attacking team in the final like we did against Fulham.

Lets see if Boro get promoted playing the way you’d like to see us return too. 

Getting everyone behind the ball is defending in numbers and not quality....it's not the answer.....It wasn't the answer under Bruce either, it just stopped the rot... we still conceded stupid goals...QPR at home, Bolton away.

The ease with what Fulham undone us, with that through ball between the defenders showcased how vulnerable we was,with individual errors, even with a defensive attitude... we didn't defend particularly well as individuals, with the exception of maybe JT, but even he was slowing after the injury and at seasons end.

I don't think Individual errors are directly down to coaching, maybe be indirectly in as much as a team winning usually make less....an error is a individually induced thing.

I think there may be a confusion at large here....I don't think anyone is suggesting scraping our way to promotion, its more about imposing ourselves to gain the initiative before we apply our arguably superior talent......you Need talent to get promoted our problem is imposing it.

The point being made is....of course you need talent, but you have to win the right to apply it.....that has to be won first.

its rare one piece of criteria is the answer to anything, a balanced set of criteria has to be found.

Pure attacking or defensive football is not the answer, its finding the balance and knowing when to use one and when to use the other and at times mixing it.

 

Edited January 22, 2019 by TRO

[Lerner's Driver]

25 minutes ago, Mazrim said:

There isnt a manager in the world who could get a tune out of Taylor, Whelan, Hutton, Hourihane etc. They're just poor.

Disagree, in the sense that at this level, they are all capable of playing well, they just don't do it nearly enough.

Poor to me, implies incapable of quality.

I also think Hourihane is a special case... he isn't physical enough, so often doesn't 'do enough' in games, but his crossing and shooting capabilities help him to keep his place and elevate him well above poor.

[TRO]

56 minutes ago, Dave-R said:

That's perfect, brilliantly put to the point no one needs to say anything else lol, it's so rite and true.

Cheers TRO

Please don't say that....I enjoy other folks views.

[KMitch]

I think the main problem is that we live in a culture of instant gratification.  What do you want to watch today?  Open Netflix/Amazon/Hulu and you have the option to watch thousands of films/TV shows at any given time.  You can play as Villa on FIFA 19 or FM19 and easily turn the club around with just armchair knowledge of football.  How hard can it be in the real world?  On paper, we have a collection of individuals who appear very strong, but in reality don't come together well as a cohesive team.  We all knew when Smith arrived that things were going to be difficult this season and would take a while to right the ship.  The problem is that we're all used to instant gratification as a society now and if things aren't going well, immediately, some fans will want to write off Smith and try to get yet another manager in for another month or so of honeymoon performances.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that and we need to be patient over the next ~2 seasons or so for the team to be rebuilt in a younger fashion.  

Edited January 22, 2019 by KMitch

[TRO]

14 minutes ago, Lerner's Driver said:

Disagree, in the sense that at this level, they are all capable of playing well, they just don't do it nearly enough.

Poor to me, implies incapable of quality.

I also think Hourihane is a special case... he isn't physical enough, so often doesn't 'do enough' in games, but his crossing and shooting capabilities help him to keep his place and elevate him well above poor.

I am not defending him but.....If we had a competent back four and a defensive midfielder who dominated the position ( he isn't) he would not look quite so bad.

He can link reasonably well and his dead balls are up there, with some of the best.....I am not saying accommodate him, because I don't like that..I believe every player in our team should be at it...making a mark.

Balance is the key and we haven't got it yet.

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, KMitch said:

I think the main problem is that we live in a culture of instant gratification.  What do you want to watch today?  Open Netflix/Amazon/Hulu and you have the option to watch thousands of films/TV shows at any given time.  You can play as Villa on FIFA 19 or FM19 and easily turn the club around with just armchair knowledge of football.  How hard can it be in the real world?  On paper, we have a collection of individuals who appear very strong, but in reality don't come together well as a cohesive team.  We all knew when Smith arrived that things were going to be difficult this season and would take a while to right the ship.  The problem is that we're all used to instant gratification as a society now and if things aren't going well, immediately, some fans will want to write off Smith and try to get yet another manager in for another month or so of honeymoon performances.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that and we need to be patient over the next ~2 seasons or so for the team to be rebuilt in a younger fashion.  

Sorry, I get your point and your point about instant gratification in this modern world applies...but, its not our problem, ours runs deeper and the fanbase are frustrated in futile attempts over many,many years to fix it.....words but no action/remedy.

I am a bit older.....and i can tell you we have been struggling for far too long, over 10 years, maybe be plus that.

We have been falling over our bootlaces to get things right and the approach we have adopted has been wrong...it has been too " here and now" with little attention to transition.

A number of posters on here recently have touched on the problem and I think they are right.....it needs a slow burn and we need to get players in with the character and talent of  Tammy and Johnny Mac.

Not easy....but that's what it needs.

We have had show ponies, mercenaries, rehabilitation patients, injury prone masqueraders and the list goes on .....all adding up to......where we are today.

I hope the new regime can get it right.

[GENTLEMAN]

4 hours ago, tomav84 said:

out of interest, what do you propose is the best strategy to make that push next season, working on the assumption that jack will be leaving and we do not have limitless room in FFP for spending? more loans of 29 year olds for 70k a week each that couldnt give a monkeys about the club?

No, I have despaired at the clubs past transfer dealings, in which very little consideration has been given to value and character. I have a feeling we’d largely agree how we would like to see the future of our transfer dealings and squad be developed. As an optimist in this regard, I believe Smith will address this (I didn’t like the signing of Kalinic, but I hope he proves me wrong).

Look, I don’t think what I’m suggesting is controversial. I am merely suggesting that the size of a club, such as Aston Villa, there will always be an expectation to push for promotion. It would be the same if say West Ham, Everton or Newcastle were in the Championship. We are the biggest club in the Championship, comparing the past 20 years, there will always be an expectantancy, there is no getting away from that. In reality, you cannot just impose the preseason suppositions of a club like Brentford on Aston Villa, just because it makes the job of the rebuild easier. In fact, I would even suggest that it is these ‘expectations’ that make us  such an highly appealing choice for ambitious and talented players and coaches (it is why Smith is here after all). Rise to the expectation and not cower. Moreover, everyone adheres to the FFP rules. Even under these constraints we should have a good level of resources in this division, that is not to say we shouldn’t seek value in every deal, just that we can, by and large out-compete, the rest. Although, I think financial power is less of a indicator than one might presume when it comes to success in the Championship.

To summarise, I don’t think building a young and ambitious squad on the cusp of realising their potential and being talented enough to be expected to push for promotion are mutually exclusive. Besides reality suggests that not pushing for promotion is not an option. Ultimately, I think this is why Dean Smith is here. To continue on his upward managerial trajectory. To test himself and realise his potential also. Whether or not he achieves this will not be down to the expectations that surround Aston Villa.

[hippo]

2 hours ago, markavfc40 said:

We did make the play off final but as soon as the full time whistle went four of the starters that day left the club. Of those that started who remain two of them are 34+, and another three are 30+. That squad much like this seasons was built on a foundation of loan players and players that are on their way down and way past their best. We have a foundation of sand just as we have had over the last few years as there has been no long term planning just quick fixes.

We can't go on like this. The last three years have shown that short term planning in the hope of promotion isn't working. It is time to take a step back and rebuild with a mixture of the best of our home grown players and bringing in players that are young and hungry who have their best years in front of them not behind.

It may well be that during this process we have to lower our expectations and not see promotion as the be all and end all. As long as we can see progress being made and a younger, hungrier squad evolving then I don't see why anyone would have a problem with that.

What won't help that process is if whilst we are rebuilding supporters start calling for the managers head or getting on the players backs. We will have to be patient and trust that a longer term plan based on stronger foundations will eventually reap the rewards that quick fixes for three years haven't.

Do you mean on VT or at VP. ?

every element of aston villa is discussed/criticised on VT - From the kit to the ground , & catering to ticket prices - as has any incumbent manager  - DS will get some flak , I am sure he expects it - as would any manager with 1 win in 9 or ten matches 

 

[Dave-R]

1 hour ago, KMitch said:

I think the main problem is that we live in a culture of instant gratification.  What do you want to watch today?  Open Netflix/Amazon/Hulu and you have the option to watch thousands of films/TV shows at any given time.  You can play as Villa on FIFA 19 or FM19 and easily turn the club around with just armchair knowledge of football.  How hard can it be in the real world?  On paper, we have a collection of individuals who appear very strong, but in reality don't come together well as a cohesive team.  We all knew when Smith arrived that things were going to be difficult this season and would take a while to right the ship.  The problem is that we're all used to instant gratification as a society now and if things aren't going well, immediately, some fans will want to write off Smith and try to get yet another manager in for another month or so of honeymoon performances.  Unfortunately, it doesn't work like that and we need to be patient over the next ~2 seasons or so for the team to be rebuilt in a younger fashion.  

Actually you have to play like a pro to be successful on fifa 19, there are equally as good opponents as they're are players playing against us in the championship. Ultimate team is a challenge online, you have to bring your best gameplay, tactics and knowledge of how the game works, especially after today update which has nerfed finesse and times shots, comes down to skill now.

Oh wait that's it, our players are the only ones who are not playing fifa 19, that is why they suck on the pitch lol.

I hear you though, fans were loving Smith while our players were performing, but they drop the ball then the fans should see it was the players who are to blame. I think blaming the manager for it as he's not playing is a very blind way of trying to see past the real problem. The real problem is that as a team our players don't seem to click, the glue is weak which bonds the together. I believe some of our players don't want to try Smith's methods or approach. We have some stuck up players in our squad who want it the easy way and to get paid there fortune. You only have to look at how some of them go off on the pitch to see what @$$ holes some have become,. Won't name names as you can guess who some are, some won't pass to certain team mates, some won't pass at all and some certainly dont put body on the line for the win or for the chance to go ahead or gain the advantage. Damn im pretty sure some of our players wont even head the ball, so goimg down on the floor looks real scary for some im sure. Im sure we can all agree that if we was playing for our club, the one we support it would be a dream for us. We wouldnt give a crap if our leg was to get broken as long as we scored for our team, so why don't most of put me players play with that same mentality,  because they are a bunch of (I'll put it in nice terms)-flowers.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Dave-R

[villalad21]

19 minutes ago, hippo said:

1 win in 9 or ten matches 

That's actually laughable, at any level.

[Mark Albrighton]

13 minutes ago, villalad21 said:

That's actually laughable, at any level.

It is poor. Currently Smith is at 1 win in 8 league games, 1 win in 9 in all competitions.

Consulting the history books, you have to go all the way back to circa  January 2017 for a worse run - no wins in 9 league games, or no wins in 10 in all competitions.

Edit - dusting off the history book again, maybe the one win in ten games earlier on this current season. That run wasn’t great either.

Edited January 22, 2019 by Shropshire Lad

[vreitti]

Has DS start here really been that bad, or is it just that the expectations are way over the top? From what I could gather we've thus far played 16 games (in the championship), managing 7 wins, 6 draws and 3 losses. That's 27 points from a possible 48, and a win percentage of ~ 44 %. I'm not really into stats, but it does feel slightly above average to me, but obviously not good enough for where we want to be.

I've no idea how Bruce's stats looked after 16 games, but I'd imagine quite similar. What I do know is that we've played far better football under DS than we ever did under Bruce, and that in itself is good enough for me for the time being.

There's no question about it though, we need to see an improvement in the coming months. Perhaps promotion just was a task too big this season, considering the mess Bruce left us in. Fwiw I still maintain we have a good enough squad for promotion, we're just severely missing Jack & Axel at the moment.