Vegetarianism/Veganism

[chrisp65]

8 minutes ago, snowychap said:

If that comment is directed at my post then you've rather misunderstood what I was saying. I wasn't the one who brought up images of bucolic bliss as a direction to take the debate in.

The slightly facetious 'Countryfile' reference was a response to the other extreme.

It was a general contribution, it wasn't really a response to anything, more a continuation of a theme. I don't think it came down on one side or the other.

 

(currently a meat eater that regularly has veggie instead)

Edited May 31, 2018 by chrisp65

[LondonLax]

Typically farmers, regardless of what tipe of farm they have, are not allowed to kill their livestock. They still send them off to a factory for the actual killing part. 

[snowychap]

On 29/05/2018 at 10:31, a m ole said:

My angle is about reducing environmental impact

A timely article:

Avoiding meat and dairy is ‘single biggest way’ to reduce your impact on Earth

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Avoiding meat and dairy products is the single biggest way to reduce your environmental impact on the planet, according to the scientists behind the most comprehensive analysis to date of the damage farming does to the planet.

The new research shows that without meat and dairy consumption, global farmland use could be reduced by more than 75% – an area equivalent to the US, China, European Union and Australia combined – and still feed the world. Loss of wild areas to agriculture is the leading cause of the current mass extinction of wildlife.

The new analysis shows that while meat and dairy provide just 18% of calories and 37% of protein, it uses the vast majority – 83% – of farmland and produces 60% of agriculture’s greenhouse gas emissions. Other recent research shows 86% of all land mammals are now livestock or humans. The scientists also found that even the very lowest impact meat and dairy products still cause much more environmental harm than the least sustainable vegetable and cereal growing.

The study, published in the journal Science, created a huge dataset based on almost 40,000 farms in 119 countries and covering 40 food products that represent 90% of all that is eaten. It assessed the full impact of these foods, from farm to fork, on land use, climate change emissions, freshwater use and water pollution (eutrophication) and air pollution (acidification).

“A vegan diet is probably the single biggest way to reduce your impact on planet Earth, not just greenhouse gases, but global acidification, eutrophication, land use and water use,” said Joseph Poore, at the University of Oxford, UK, who led the research. “It is far bigger than cutting down on your flights or buying an electric car,” he said, as these only cut greenhouse gas emissions.

“Agriculture is a sector that spans all the multitude of environmental problems,” he said. “Really it is animal products that are responsible for so much of this. Avoiding consumption of animal products delivers far better environmental benefits than trying to purchase sustainable meat and dairy.”

The analysis also revealed a huge variability between different ways of producing the same food. For example, beef cattle raised on deforested land result in 12 times more greenhouse gases and use 50 times more land than those grazing rich natural pasture. But the comparison of beef with plant protein such as peas is stark, with even the lowest impact beef responsible for six times more greenhouse gases and 36 times more land.

The large variability in environmental impact from different farms does present an opportunity for reducing the harm, Poore said, without needing the global population to become vegan. If the most harmful half of meat and dairy production was replaced by plant-based food, this still delivers about two-thirds of the benefits of getting rid of all meat and dairy production.

Cutting the environmental impact of farming is not easy, Poore warned: “There are over 570m farms all of which need slightly different ways to reduce their impact. It is an [environmental] challenge like no other sector of the economy.” But he said at least $500bn is spent every year on agricultural subsidies, and probably much more: “There is a lot of money there to do something really good with.”

Labels that reveal the impact of products would be a good start, so consumers could choose the least damaging options, he said, but subsidies for sustainable and healthy foods and taxes on meat and dairy will probably also be necessary.

One surprise from the work was the large impact of freshwater fish farming, which provides two-thirds of such fish in Asia and 96% in Europe, and was thought to be relatively environmentally friendly. “You get all these fish depositing excreta and unconsumed feed down to the bottom of the pond, where there is barely any oxygen, making it the perfect environment for methane production,” a potent greenhouse gas, Poore said.

The research also found grass-fed beef, thought to be relatively low impact, was still responsible for much higher impacts than plant-based food. “Converting grass into [meat] is like converting coal to energy. It comes with an immense cost in emissions,” Poore said.

The new research has received strong praise from other food experts. Prof Gidon Eshel, at Bard College, US, said: “I was awestruck. It is really important, sound, ambitious, revealing and beautifully done.”

He said previous work on quantifying farming’s impacts, including his own, had taken a top-down approach using national level data, but the new work used a bottom-up approach, with farm-by-farm data. “It is very reassuring to see they yield essentially the same results. But the new work has very many important details that are profoundly revealing.”

Prof Tim Benton, at the University of Leeds, UK, said: “This is an immensely useful study. It brings together a huge amount of data and that makes its conclusions much more robust. The way we produce food, consume and waste food is unsustainable from a planetary perspective. Given the global obesity crisis, changing diets – eating less livestock produce and more vegetables and fruit – has the potential to make both us and the planet healthier.”

Dr Peter Alexander, at the University of Edinburgh, UK, was also impressed but noted: “There may be environmental benefits, eg for biodiversity, from sustainably managed grazing and increasing animal product consumption may improve nutrition for some of the poorest globally. My personal opinion is we should interpret these results not as the need to become vegan overnight, but rather to moderate our [meat] consumption.”

Poore said: “The reason I started this project was to understand if there were sustainable animal producers out there. But I have stopped consuming animal products over the last four years of this project. These impacts are not necessary to sustain our current way of life. The question is how much can we reduce them and the answer is a lot.”

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by snowychap

[lapal_fan]

After reading this thread and agreeing with most of it. Maybe some sort of "meat tax" could be bought in? So, no more 500 meat platters for £3 from Iceland etc.

Some of the meat in pubs is questionable, I have eaten it, and only really as I've got older have I ever questioned it.  But how can anything be worth eating on these "challenge Tuesday's" at sizzling pubs where they offer a dustbin lid of meat for 13.99 or whatever - how can that meat be of any quality?

 

[chrisp65]

illustration / table from Defra

figures from circa 2005

in 2005 there were 174,000,000 chickens farmed in the UK

95% were farmed in 'compliant' conditions

meaning in 2005 in the UK just 8.5 million chickens were farmed in a 'non-compliant' way

there are over 400 industrial farms that have over 100,000 chickens each

about 35% (my calculation!) of the chickens for meat are 'processed' on the 'farm' site

egg laying hens produce 28,000,000 eggs per day, at the end of their productive life, they are given a small south facing field and a foot spa

[Daniel]

I went vegan a while back. Only did it for the health benefits, so i'm not actually worried about if my shoes are vegan. My intentions were to try it out, but ended up feeling much better. I think some people do see a massive boost in their health and feeling if they don't eat meat. I've had people try it out and they said they felt worse, so i guess it's down to the person and their body if they like it or not. I've always liked almost every fruit or vegetable i've tried, so i think it was easy for me to cut eating meat out.

It does get annoying seeing these aggressive vegans though.

[mjmooney]

I did eat a banana today. Contributes to my 'five a year'. 

[tonyh29]

14 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

I did eat a banana today. Contributes to my 'five a year'. 

You’ve sold out ...

must admit I did have a packet of fruit pastilles today so I think I also hit one of mine 

[TheAuthority]

6 hours ago, snowychap said:

Not sure that's too relevant to what I posted, tbh. It just looks like another example of where the US democratic system has been bought.

You asked if they were edited to show what people wanted to see in order to push a specific agenda. I tried to provide some context that it is not only hard, it's illegal to video inside large agricultural farms. I was just trying to answer your question by providing that information and I'm sorry that you don't think it's relevant.

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I guess you could watch a few episodes of Countryfile.

Also, there's plenty of beautiful, rolling fields and hills around these parts that cattle and sheep are grazing on before they become a cutlet or a steak.

 

I'm glad that there are still cows visibly grazing in England (as there were when I grew up there.) I have no idea what percentage of the meat consumed in England is grass fed free range and how much comes from industrial animal farms. 

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Again, there's an ocean between the heavily industrialized practices of factory farming and rolling fields that cattle graze upon their whole lives.

I'm not so sure there is - at least not here in the USA. However, weren't several major UK supermarkets recently revealed to be sourcing meat from dubious abattoirs that mixed cow and and horse meat together? There was a public outcry about it (mainly because it's not culturally accepted to eat horse in the UK.)

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Are the organization responsible for the video that you posted a link to trying to encourage people to become vegan?

I think so yes. (The name of the organization is Mercy for Animals - doesn't seem like they are trying to hide anything .) 

The reasons for people to be vegan are many but we simply cannot sustain mass factory animal farming at it's current state. It's an environmental catastrophe  - before you begin to debate the ethics of harming animals.

[Chindie]

Most farming is environmentally and ecologically damaging.

[snowychap]

17 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

However, weren't several major UK supermarkets recently revealed to be sourcing meat from dubious abattoirs that mixed cow and and horse meat together? There was a public outcry about it (mainly because it's not culturally accepted to eat horse in the UK.)

You're referring to the scandal a few years ago where horse meat was being sold on as beef, are you? Again, I'm not quite sure what that has to do with things - other than to show that some people try stuff on and don't play by the rules.

17 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

I think so yes. (The name of the organization is Mercy for Animals - doesn't seem like they are trying to hide anything .)

I had a look at their website after your post with their short video and, though I admit that I may have missed it, getting people to become vegan did not appear to be the headline - rather it was stuff about helping to 'protect farmed animals', 'inspiring compassionate food choices and policies', 'exposing cruelty' and 'prosecuting abusers'.

It would appear that you weren't totally certain, though. That sounds as though they're not quite as transparent with their agenda as you might have suggested.

 

Edited May 31, 2018 by snowychap

[snowychap]

30 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

... before you begin to debate the ethics of harming animals.

And here's the nub of the whole thing. The elephant in the room (I know, it's probably abusive to squeeze him in there) is that eating meat at all is to be regarded as animal cruelty.

Edited May 31, 2018 by snowychap

[TheAuthority]

1 minute ago, snowychap said:

You're referring to the scandal a few years ago where horse meat was being sold on as beef, are you? Again, I'm not quite sure what that has to do with things - other than to show that some people try stuff on and don't play by the rules.

 

It has to do with how much of meat you eat in the UK comes from the bucolic "Countryfile" farms that you suggested earlier compared to factory farms. I don't know what that % is. Do you?

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I had a look at their website after your post with their short video and, though I admit that I may have missed it, getting people to become vegan did not appear to be the headline - rather it was stuff about helping to 'protect farmed animals', 'inspiring compassionate food choices and policies', 'exposing cruelty' and 'prosecuting abusers'.

It would appear that you weren't totally certain, though. That sounds as though they're not quite as transparent with their agenda as you might have suggested.

Glad you're able to set us all straight about them. 

[snowychap]

4 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

It has to do with how much of meat you eat in the UK comes from the bucolic "Countryfile" farms that you suggested earlier compared to factory farms.

I didn't suggest anything. You were the one who started the nonsense about 'all these beautiful rolling fields' up against the factory farming that the video you linked to was about.

As I said in my earlier post, the Countryfile comment was a slightly facetious one in response to this original comment of yours.

4 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

Glad you're able to set us all straight about them.

You wot?

Edited May 31, 2018 by snowychap

[MrDuck]

49 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

You’ve sold out ...

must admit I did have a packet of fruit pastilles today so I think I also hit one of mine 

Made with gelatine - so technically still animal

[villakram]

Death is distasteful, who knew!

 

[sharkyvilla]

This thread turned into a long boring argument.  Who'd a thunk it?

[Stevo985]

1 minute ago, sharkyvilla said:

This thread turned into a long boring argument.  Who'd a thunk it?

I'm not even sure what the argument is  

it's funny how you can predict how these threads will go

[PompeyVillan]

Do Vegans ever worry that should the world run out of meat that us carnivores will turn on the Vegans and eat them?

It's possible. 

[Davkaus]

6 minutes ago, PompeyVillan said:

Do Vegans ever worry that should the world run out of meat that us carnivores will turn on the Vegans and eat them?

It's possible. 

It's impossible for the world to run out of meat. There'll always be an island that vegans hypothetically find themselves on, where a pig is the only source of food.