Rugeley Villa Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 10 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Hmmm, the Palestinians have made bad choices. What was the peaceful legal route to getting their land and their homes back that they missed? From the Balfour Declaration to now, what errors by the Palestinians have lead to their current situation? Perhaps if they just held peace vigils like the people from Diego Garcia they’d have their homes back now? If all the people of Lancashire were moved to Blackpool, with minimal health care, intermittent water supply, poor schooling, poor prospects, no economy. If that happened do you imagine there would spring up a peace movement and a people’s democracy of Blackpool to campaign peacefully through legal channels? I think you’re taking it to the extremes there using Blackpool as your example. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Palestinian people have been fisted in the a** on a daily basis by Israel for decades. Killing civilian Israelis in retaliation is not the answer, but there is no answer. Palestine is effed and it being completely erased and incorporated into Israel will go slow or fast but it will happen eventually. The world doesn't care (enough) Only positive in this situation is that the area is too small for Israel to use their nuclear weapons on it as they still want the land for their people. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 I do believe Israel at its core is damn right evil and some of the people damn right arrogant regarding what they believe is there’s. I’m also not a fan of backward Islamic extremism either, which would exist regardless , but Israel certainly add fuel to the fire . 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Woah, the far right government of Israel have acted evily for decades, but fundamentally Israel is just another country, one borne out of extraordinary circumstances and tragedy. Israeli's have their own right to live a peaceful life, but yeah problem has been such a massive cackhanded approach since 1947, and maybe missed opportunities a touch with the Oslo Accords, but generally, there has not been genuine desire at any point for peace and 2 states from the Israeli's ever. They've always wanted the whole lot. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Townsend Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Feels like WW3 really when you look at who backs who and how extreme many of those players have become. Russia backs Iran to the hilt, Iran backs Hamas. Israel and Hamas provoke the **** out of each other cobstantly (without me getting into who I see as the baddie there). Israel's govt is a govt of racist, right wing lunatics so I am guessing they are going to go in hard . Makes you long for the relative peace of say 2013. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post OutByEaster? Posted October 7, 2023 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted October 7, 2023 Not so much a war, more a prison riot. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Oh Hamas what have you done Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 7, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 7, 2023 The only sure thing about this is that it won't make things better - but then, it's hard to think anything would for the Palestinians. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 13 minutes ago, tonyh29 said: Oh Hamas what have you done The retribution is not going to be kind is it, just hope this isn’t one of those small pre wars indicating a mass conflict. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 2 hours ago, chrisp65 said: What was the peaceful legal route to getting their land and their homes back that they missed? Exactly the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trekka Posted October 7, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 7, 2023 It's ironic that Russia has called for "restraint and immediate ceasefire". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 7, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 7, 2023 3 hours ago, chrisp65 said: Hmmm, the Palestinians have made bad choices. What was the peaceful legal route to getting their land and their homes back that they missed? From the Balfour Declaration to now, what errors by the Palestinians have lead to their current situation? Perhaps if they just held peace vigils like the people from Diego Garcia they’d have their homes back now? My point (such as I'm really making one) is not that the Palestinians aren't in an absolutely appalling situation, or that they are very limited in being able to influence or affect their situation for the better. I completely sympathise with their plight and accept the questions you ask - I think the same. Where I'm not supportive of them is that firing (Hamas claim) 5000 rockets, plus sending armed militia to kill indiscriminately is in any way going to help - it's not, it's going to make things even worse. It's particularly going to make things worse for the poor folk who just want to get on with life, who don't want, or take part in all the killing and murdering and maiming. What Hamas and Islamic Jihad do is equally as bad in its own way as what the IDF and Israeli government do, only with less sophisticated weapons. They perpetuate the killing on both sides. Hams launches rocket attacks and gunfire on civilians, Israel retaliates by (no doubt) extreme force against Palestinian civilians. The world's a **** up place at the moment, and Israel is utterly opposed to a 2 state solution and the rotw is not as engaged in it as we'd like, but while Israel can say "we had to go after them, they were rocketing our towns" there's an easy way out for the rest of the world. Palestine cannot "win" by use of force against civilians, they can only lose even more that way. Quote If all the people of Lancashire were moved to Blackpool, with minimal health care, intermittent water supply, poor schooling, poor prospects, no economy. If that happened do you imagine there would spring up a peace movement and a people’s democracy of Blackpool to campaign peacefully through legal channels? You're describing Blackpool very well. It happens every summer There's no peace movement sprang up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted October 7, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 7, 2023 1 hour ago, VILLAMARV said: Exactly the point. It really isn't. It's half a point at best. If we accept there isn't a peaceful solution to returning their land and homes, and sadly that seems to be the case, there's still a choice between violence or not. They've been doing violence (as has Israel) for decades. It's got them nowhere other than even worse off. And it's not just doing violence against the IDF and Israeli police brutes, it's violence against civilians, by suicide bombers, by gunmen, by mortar and rocket attacks. What exactly has it solved? - that's the other half of the point. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Twitter is a cess pit of course. There’s very little Middle ground between celebrating the indiscriminate murder and torture of Israeli civilians and gleeful hand rubbing over the imminent carpet bombing of Palestinian civilians. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, blandy said: It really isn't. It's half a point at best. If we accept there isn't a peaceful solution to returning their land and homes, and sadly that seems to be the case, there's still a choice between violence or not. They've been doing violence (as has Israel) for decades. It's got them nowhere other than even worse off. And it's not just doing violence against the IDF and Israeli police brutes, it's violence against civilians, by suicide bombers, by gunmen, by mortar and rocket attacks. What exactly has it solved? - that's the other half of the point. What if we don't narrow the debate though? Is a peaceful outcome possible then? There always being a choice for violence is a fine point, where it's appropriate in my eyes. When used to defend the actions of a murderous, apartheid regime it seems a little pithy if i'm honest. The question of exactly when violence becomes 'justified' in a moral sense is a fine philosophical debate. Some people view Nelson Mandela as a cultural icon, others can't see past the bombings. But the defining point there is what other actions were left open to the human beings having to live through the torture, the beatings, the denigration, the subhuman treatment? It's exactly the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 2 bits of MLK spring to mind "Darkness cannot drive away the darkness, only light can do that" But also "It's impossible for me to condemn the rioting, without also condemning the conditions that lead to the rioting" (I may well have paraphrased one or both of those) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 42 minutes ago, blandy said: My point (such as I'm really making one) is not that the Palestinians aren't in an absolutely appalling situation, or that they are very limited in being able to influence or affect their situation for the better. I completely sympathise with their plight and accept the questions you ask - I think the same. Where I'm not supportive of them is that firing (Hamas claim) 5000 rockets, plus sending armed militia to kill indiscriminately is in any way going to help - it's not, it's going to make things even worse. It's particularly going to make things worse for the poor folk who just want to get on with life, who don't want, or take part in all the killing and murdering and maiming. What Hamas and Islamic Jihad do is equally as bad in its own way as what the IDF and Israeli government do, only with less sophisticated weapons. They perpetuate the killing on both sides. Hams launches rocket attacks and gunfire on civilians, Israel retaliates by (no doubt) extreme force against Palestinian civilians. The world's a **** up place at the moment, and Israel is utterly opposed to a 2 state solution and the rotw is not as engaged in it as we'd like, but while Israel can say "we had to go after them, they were rocketing our towns" there's an easy way out for the rest of the world. Palestine cannot "win" by use of force against civilians, they can only lose even more that way. You're describing Blackpool very well. It happens every summer There's no peace movement sprang up. I wouldn’t want to see any violence. I’m not ‘supportive’ of it and its blatantly obvious what the outcome will be. But if you have been kettled in to a ghetto, controlled and squeezed and criminalised by others that think you are inferior and a threat to their culture then you have two choices. You can quietly comply with being exterminated, or you can resist. It’s a choice a number of ethnic groups have faced through time. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 7, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 7, 2023 At least 198 Palestinians dead in Israeli retaliation attack. Utterly predictable result of Hamas' actions earlier What did Hamas imagine was the endgame to what they did? What Israel have done will be despicable but what were Hamas trying to achieve and how did they think it would end? If they didn’t think it ended with a lot of deaths of their own people then they didn’t think very hard. You have to suspect that Hamas knew exactly what the outcome would be and factored in those deaths. Its mind blowing 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 7, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 7, 2023 48 minutes ago, blandy said: If we accept there isn't a peaceful solution to returning their land and homes, and sadly that seems to be the case, there's still a choice between violence or not. But what does "not" mean for the people of Gaza? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 7, 2023 Share Posted October 7, 2023 Qatar have put the blame at Israel's door now - what chance they are funding some of this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts