Israel, Palestine and Iran

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

At least 198 Palestinians dead in Israeli retaliation attack.

Utterly predictable result of Hamas' actions earlier

What did Hamas imagine was the endgame to what they did? What Israel have done will be despicable but what were Hamas trying to achieve and how did they think it would end? If they didn’t think it ended with a lot of deaths of their own people then they didn’t think very hard. You have to suspect that Hamas knew exactly what the outcome would be and factored in those deaths. 

Its mind blowing 
 

Hamas are just a horrible proxy organisation for Iran. 

How and why are Hamas and Iranian influence in Gaza? That’s also mind blowing. 

There will be a clamp down by Israel, there will be more death. More settlers will steal more homes and displace more families and condemn more Palestinians to a life of abject uneducated poverty at the mercy of Iranian hand outs which come at a price. The screw will be turned.

How does Israel think that will end?

Where is the world policeman? It’s telling Israel it will supply all the weapons it requires to continue this mess. 

 

[Nicho]

30 minutes ago, VILLAMARV said:

2 bits of MLK spring to mind

"Darkness cannot drive away the darkness, only light can do that"

But also

"It's impossible for me to condemn the rioting, without also condemning the conditions that lead to the rioting"

(I may well have paraphrased one or both of those)

Both from the I had a nap speech I think 

[sne]

There is never going to be any peaceful solution to this conflict/occupation/extermination or whatever you want to call it. Israel has zero incentive to give up anything or stop what they are doing. And I doubt they ever will. It's working. They are slowly grinding what is left of Palestine to dust and taking over land bit by bit. They are still allowed to assassinate Iranian targets, bomb Syria and take part in sporting events (unless it's in Iran) the Eurovision and so on. They can still export and import whatever they want to most places and while some international leaders might condemn their actions from time to time there is never any real repercussions. Why would they stop? Sometimes things like this current situation happens with Hamas trying to prove they are still around and relevant by killing Israeli civilians and the situation is accelerated with Israel moving in and taking more land and demolishing more of what's still left. And the losers are always the Palestinian people.

There might have been a point in history were this could have been "solved" or at least been turned into something less horrible. But that ship has long since sailed. 

Edited October 7, 2023 by sne
typo

[VILLAMARV]

16 minutes ago, Nicho said:

Both from the I had a nap speech I think 

didn't know so I looked it up.

That's off his memorial and it's seemingly attributed to his 1963 book 'Strength to Love' (Although it's a rewording of Bible verse IIRC)

And the other one is from his 'Other America' speech at Stanford in 1967 -

Quote

    So these conditions, persistence of widespread poverty, of slums and of tragic conditions in schools and in other areas of life, all of these things have brought about a great deal of despair and a great deal of desperation, a great deal of disappointment and even bitterness in the Negro communities. Today, all of our cities confront huge problems. All of our cities are potentially powder kegs, as a result of the continued existence of these conditions. Many, in moments of anger, many, in moments of deep bitterness, engage in riots.
    Let me say, as I’ve always said, and I will always continue to say, that riots are socially destructive and self-defeating. I’m still convinced that nonviolence is the most potent weapons available to oppress people in their struggle for freedom and justice. I feel that violence will only create more social problems than they will solve, that in a real sense, it is impractical for the Negro to even think of mounting a violent revolution in the United States. So I will continue to condemn riots and continue to say to my brothers and sisters that this is not the way. Continue to affirm that there is another way.
    But at the same time, it is as necessary for me to be as vigorous in condemning the conditions which cause persons to feel that they must engage in riotous activities, as it is for me to condemn riots. I think America must see that riots do not develop out of thin air. Certain conditions continue to exist in our society, which must be condemned as vigorously as we condemn riots. And in the final analysis, a riot is the language of the unheard. And what is it that America has failed to hear? It has failed to hear that the plight of the Negro poor has worsened over the last few years. It has failed to hear that the promises of freedom and justice have not been met. And it has failed to hear that large segments of white society are more concerned about tranquility and the status quo than about justice, equality, and humanity.
    So in a real sense, our nation’s summer’s riots are caused by our nation’s winters of delay. And as long as America postpones justice, we stand in the position of having these recurrences of violence and riots over and over again. Social justice and progress are the absolute guarantors of riot prevention.

My paraphrasing really did it an injustice.

[blandy]

48 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I wouldn’t want to see any violence. I’m not ‘supportive’ of it and its blatantly obvious what the outcome will be.

But if you have been kettled in to a ghetto, controlled and squeezed and criminalised by others that think you are inferior and a threat to their culture then you have two choices. You can quietly comply with being exterminated, or you can resist.

It’s a choice a number of ethnic groups have faced through time.

It is, you’re right. Hamas and Islamic jihad also see Israel and Jewish people as inferior and a threat to their culture, while also placing little value on the lives of the Palestinian people. They (as Bicks said) knew exactly what their actions would lead to.  Israeli civilians might also think “we can resist, or we can accept being murdered by terrorists”. Of course they’ve got all the “benefits” of a relatively rich and extremely well armed state behind them, but the emotions are the same at a human level - they kill us and we kill them in reply. Until the killing stops, it will always escalate and de-escalate again. And that is the aim of Hamas and the aim of Israeli governments, particularly the current very right wing one. 

[blandy]

52 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

But what does "not" mean for the people of Gaza?

The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. That was Einstein. Both Israel and Hamas have been doing it. Not means (both sides) breaking the cycle of violence.

[magnkarl]

This is all just sad, Iran and Hezbollah are using Palestinian civilians as ammunition in their endless war against far right lunatics that like nothing more.

If Hamas cared about their people they wouldn’t be doing this. They’ve been egged on by tin pot dictators ever since the Israeli state got put where it is. Assad, Iran and Putin must be the watching with glee.

[momo]

16 minutes ago, blandy said:

It is, you’re right. Hamas and Islamic jihad also see Israel and Jewish people as inferior and a threat to their culture, while also placing little value on the lives of the Palestinian people. They (as Bicks said) knew exactly what their actions would lead to.  Israeli civilians might also think “we can resist, or we can accept being murdered by terrorists”. Of course they’ve got all the “benefits” of a relatively rich and extremely well armed state behind them, but the emotions are the same at a human level - they kill us and we kill them in reply. Until the killing stops, it will always escalate and de-escalate again. And that is the aim of Hamas and the aim of Israeli governments, particularly the current very right wing one. 

Excuse me? Maybe tone down the guessing game here. The far right, the left, the right, the center, the orthodox, the whatever place the zionists are on the scale, look at all the Palestinians as sub-humans who don't deserve free will. The zionists are the problem, not the Jewish ethnicity.  It's not up to anybody here to decide in what way a legal rebellion against inhumane oppression, collective punishment and torture should be carried out. No civilians should be attacked, I agree completely with that. Yet here we are. Another thousands of Palestinians children will be killed, another thousands of innocent Palestinians will be killed on top of that. And all some here do is shrug "Gazans should accept their fate as subhumans to the zionists". If you don't understand that oppression is not the right way to handle 2 million people, then you will never understand why desperate people will do everything they can to get out of this mess. Whatever the cost is.

[magnkarl]

2 minutes ago, momo said:

Excuse me? Maybe tone down the guessing game here. The far right, the left, the right, the center, the orthodox, the whatever place the zionists are on the scale, look at all the Palestinians as sub-humans who don't deserve free will. The zionists are the problem, not the Jewish ethnicity.  It's not up to anybody here to decide in what way a legal rebellion against inhumane oppression, collective punishment and torture should be carried out. No civilians should be attacked, I agree completely with that. Yet here we are. Another thousands of Palestinians children will be killed, another thousands of innocent Palestinians will be killed on top of that. And all some here do is shrug "Gazans should accept their fate as subhumans to the zionists". If you don't understand that oppression is not the right way to handle 2 million people, then you will never understand why desperate people will do everything they can to get out of this mess. Whatever the cost is.

I think you need to go and read about Islamic Jihad and Hamas. They’re essentially ISIS hidden in a country that really doesn’t need them. They took over power illegally from PLO to enforce extreme racial and religious laws themselves. Blandly isn’t making anything up.

Edited October 7, 2023 by magnkarl

[Mozzavfc]

Does Palestine not have any UN peacekeepers in it?

 

Seems like the exact spot they should be 

[blandy]

8 minutes ago, momo said:

Excuse me? Maybe tone down the guessing game here. The far right, the left, the right, the center, the orthodox, the whatever place the zionists are on the scale, look at all the Palestinians as sub-humans who don't deserve free will. The zionists are the problem, not the Jewish ethnicity.  It's not up to anybody here to decide in what way a legal rebellion against inhumane oppression, collective punishment and torture should be carried out. No civilians should be attacked, I agree completely with that. Yet here we are. Another thousands of Palestinians children will be killed, another thousands of innocent Palestinians will be killed on top of that. And all some here do is shrug "Gazans should accept their fate as subhumans to the zionists". If you don't understand that oppression is not the right way to handle 2 million people, then you will never understand why desperate people will do everything they can to get out of this mess. Whatever the cost is.

I have no idea why you’ve quoted my post as your thoughts bear no relation to anything I’ve written.

[momo]

7 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I think you need to go and read about Islamic Jihad and Hamas. They’re essentially ISIS hidden in a country that really doesn’t need them. They took over power illegally from PLO to enforce extreme racial and religious laws themselves. Blandly isn’t making anything up.

Don't come telling lies. Hamas fights oppression. Hamas won the last election. Please, don't bother.

[momo]

Just now, blandy said:

I have no idea why you’ve quoted my post as your thoughts bear no relation to anything I’ve written.

It was only the part I had in bold that I felt was very much out of order: Hamas and Islamic jihad also see Israel and Jewish people as inferior and a threat to their culture.

[blandy]

8 minutes ago, momo said:

It was only the part I had in bold that I felt was very much out of order: Hamas and Islamic jihad also see Israel and Jewish people as inferior and a threat to their culture.

I stand by it. Hamas doesn’t even recognise Israel’s right to exist and Islamic Jihad has its aim as the destruction of Israel. This isn’t compatible with peace or a 2 state solution or (eventually) living side by side.

[LondonLax]

It is surprisingly easy to justify the killing of civilians if you feel it is righteous and there was no other option. It’s only an option if you have dehumanised the people who are dying of course. 

[momo]

6 minutes ago, blandy said:

I stand by it. Hamas doesn’t even recognise Israel’s right to exist and Islamic Jihad has its aim as the destruction of Israel. This isn’t compatible with peace or a 2 state solution or (eventually) living side by side.

Not recognizing an occupational power does not equal seeing jewish people as inferior. Does israel recognize Palestine's right to exist? No. Does israel treat Palestinians as subhumans? Yes. Case closed.

[VILLAMARV]

19 minutes ago, Mozzavfc said:

Does Palestine not have any UN peacekeepers in it?

Seems like the exact spot they should be 

I don't know about peacekeepers specifically is the honest answer from me, but the UN is/has been traditionally hamstrung in even commenting in a unified manner on the situation as the US usually vetos any formal reaction by the security council. (Other regimes and other situations exist of course Russia/Ukraine, China/Myanmar etc)

I know UN aid workers operate in Palestine or have done so, but only because there's an occasional story of them being shot by the Isreali military.

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Not means (both sides) breaking the cycle of violence.

Without the possibility of a peaceful negotiated outcome, there is no way for the people of Gaza to break the cycle - they don't have a neutral gear to go into, there's not a way for them to sit this one out - they're being slowly exterminated.

If, as you said "we accept there isn't a peaceful solution to returning their land and homes, and sadly that seems to be the case, there's still a choice between violence or not". for Palestinians in Gaza, the 'not' in that sentence is dying.

 

 

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Without the possibility of a peaceful negotiated outcome, there is no way for the people of Gaza to break the cycle - they don't have a neutral gear to go into, there's not a way for them to sit this one out - they're being slowly exterminated.

If, as you said "we accept there isn't a peaceful solution to returning their land and homes, and sadly that seems to be the case, there's still a choice between violence or not". for Palestinians in Gaza, the 'not' in that sentence is dying.

There’s no imminent prospect. As I said somewhere earlier, the world is in a particularly bad phase at the moment. It wasn’t always like that. Under, I think it was Clinton there was a lot of hope and progress and more peace. The PLO and Fatah renounced violence and terrorism. Israel was a lot less right wing. Since then whoppers have taken over both sides and the USA.

The violence is what’s causing the dying.

[OutByEaster?]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

The violence is what’s causing the dying.

Violence does cause dying - but possibly not to the same extent as the removal of clean water, medical supplies, access to foods and so on. The dying continues on one side of the fence regardless. 

The only solution is an enforced solution imposed by the rest of the world (I guess Einstein might point out that this is how we got into this mess), but there's absolutely no will to do that because of the influence of Israel in the US and it's place in the worlds financial markets, and as you say, that seems further away than ever.

It's really hard to see any outcome that isn't the eventual removal of Gaza and all of its people from the earth.