Israel, Palestine and Iran

[villa4europe]

Is it bad that the 2 American twunts jumped out at me straight away and offended me even more? 

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, villa4europe said:

Is it bad that the 2 American twunts jumped out at me straight away and offended me even more? 

I heard a few European accents in there too. It's like they don't know their own history and why they're even there in the first place. They've turned into the very monsters that nearly extinguished their existence. Quite amazing how that can happen in less than a century.

[ender4]

4 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Absolutely horrifying clip

 

 

 

Has the journalist just sifted through and picked the most extreme views to show, or is that typical of the general thought of young people in Israel? 

She might have interviewed another 50 people who wanted peace and to live in harmony with the palestinian people?  or maybe not, who knows.

[bannedfromHandV]

In terms of demographics, is it the same kind of situation as Brexit basically in that not every person who voted for it is racist but every racist voted for it.

So not every Jewish person wants to obliterate Palestine but every person who wants Palestine obliterated is Jewish? 
 

Kinda makes it tough to separate the two, as we’ve seen with Brexit.

[Mic09]

3 hours ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

Ex-President Trump absolutely loves the place and so does his silly little political party.

Is a Trump thumbs up going help your cause long term or hinder it ?  He is such a "Character" it could possibly flip some of the US population to get behind the "Other team".

I don't know who is right or wrong in the conflict but who aligns with who and why is always interesting.

Trump wasn't my cup of tea, but;

1) Instead of complaining against a force that is no longer existent in active politics (Trump) how about we now oppose the Biden administration which has supported the Israeli right to ''self defence''? 

2) This goes beyond Republicans/Democrats, Israel and US are best buddies regardless of which way the political pendulum swings every 4 years. 

[darrenm]

39 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

every person who wants Palestine obliterated is Jewish? 

Nope. Not at all. Some of the ultra Zionists want everyone to think that. But it's back to the old left v right argument making its way into Judaism too.

Left Jews support the Palestinians' right to their own land. Even the ones who agree with Zionism believe in a 2 state solution.

The right which includes the current administration of Israel, Natanyahu, Likkud, The British Board of Deputies don't support Palestine's right to exist.

As ever, the right is given the voice in the media so naturally the right say that anyone who opposes Zionism or Israel's actions is antisemitic. 

So you have Jews who have lost relatives in the Holocaust - even those who were in the holocaust and survived in the case of Hajo Meyer - branded antisemites because they said that Israel was now doing what the Nazis did to them. Here's Jeremy Corbyn being forced to apologise for co-chairing an event with Jewish holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer called "never again - from Auschwitz to Gaza"

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-sorry-for-sharing-conference-platform-with-anti-zionist-speaker-11455926

Quote

 

Jeremy Corbyn has apologised for "concerns and anxiety" caused by him chairing a House of Commons event at which Israel was compared to the Nazis.

The incident forms part of a complaint made to Labour about Mr Corbyn, as well as a referral of the party to Britain's human rights watchdog.

Mr Corbyn admitted he has "on occasion appeared on platforms with people whose views I completely reject" in relation to the event, which was held in parliament on Holocaust Memorial Day in 2010.

 

 

Edited May 19, 2021 by darrenm

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

 

4 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

 Instead of complaining against a force that is no longer existent in active politics (Trump)

Am I really complaining about anything ? Are you complaining about imaginary complaining ? 

Just making the point from a historical point of view,  maybe sometimes it comes back and bites you in the arse standing around shaking hands with words removed,  who knows at this point.

Apologies that I cant see into the future and answer the point outside of VT.

Maybe Biden doesn't want to go down the same path as his predecessor becasue it doesn't look good.

 

 

[Seat68]

9 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Nope. Not at all. Some of the ultra Zionists want everyone to think that. But it's back to the old left v right argument making its way into Judaism too.

Left Jews support the Palestinians' right to their own land. Even the ones who agree with Zionism believe in a 2 state solution.

The right which includes the current administration of Israel, Natanyahu, Likkud, The British Board of Deputies and Labour Friends of Israel don't support Palestine's right to exist.

As ever, the right is given the voice in the media so naturally the right say that anyone who opposes Zionism or Israel's actions is antisemitic. 

So you have Jews who have lost relatives in the Holocaust - even those who were in the holocaust and survived in the case of Hajo Meyer - branded antisemites because they said that Israel was now doing what the Nazis did to them. Here's Jeremy Corbyn being forced to apologise for co-chairing an event with Jewish holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer called "never again - from Auschwitz to Gaza"

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-sorry-for-sharing-conference-platform-with-anti-zionist-speaker-11455926

 

Labour friends of Israel support a 2 state system. 

[darrenm]

1 minute ago, Seat68 said:

Labour friends of Israel support a 2 state system. 

Thanks. Corrected.

[Mic09]

32 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

 

Am I really complaining about anything ? Are you complaining about imaginary complaining ? 

Just making the point from a historical point of view,  maybe sometimes it comes back and bites you in the arse standing around shaking hands with words removed,  who knows at this point.

Apologies that I cant see into the future and answer the point outside of VT.

Maybe Biden doesn't want to go down the same path as his predecessor becasue it doesn't look good.

 

 

Sorry, I didn't mean it like that.

I guess what gets on my nerves recently is many people still hitting the Trump button even after he is practically done for. I think we should have a go at people who are currently bringing suffering and pain to people around the world. 

And Biden has already extended one of the most stupid wars to until 11th September (most likely in order to get some sort of symbolic kudos) so my estimate of his treatment of global conflicts is already low. 

[darrenm]

On the subject of left v right views on Israel, here's a fascinating (or it could have been had Maitlis not kept interrupting the left wing guest - shocker) debate between left and right Jews

 

[blandy]

41 minutes ago, darrenm said:

The British Board of Deputies don't support Palestine's right to exist

I mooney'ed that claim because it struck me as extremely unlikely

It turns out I was right to do so - Their "manifesto" (link to pdf)  which they publish every year (I think) contains the pledge

Quote

Advocate for a permanent and comprehensive solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, resulting in a secure Israel alongside a viable Palestinian state.

 

[Chindie]

Lot of weasel words there.

[LondonLax]

57 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Nope. Not at all. Some of the ultra Zionists want everyone to think that. But it's back to the old left v right argument making its way into Judaism too.

Left Jews support the Palestinians' right to their own land. Even the ones who agree with Zionism believe in a 2 state solution.

The right which includes the current administration of Israel, Natanyahu, Likkud, The British Board of Deputies don't support Palestine's right to exist.

As ever, the right is given the voice in the media so naturally the right say that anyone who opposes Zionism or Israel's actions is antisemitic. 

So you have Jews who have lost relatives in the Holocaust - even those who were in the holocaust and survived in the case of Hajo Meyer - branded antisemites because they said that Israel was now doing what the Nazis did to them. Here's Jeremy Corbyn being forced to apologise for co-chairing an event with Jewish holocaust survivor Hajo Meyer called "never again - from Auschwitz to Gaza"

https://news.sky.com/story/jeremy-corbyn-sorry-for-sharing-conference-platform-with-anti-zionist-speaker-11455926

 

Your response doesn’t seem to relate to the line you quoted from ‘bannedfromHandV’.

 

[darrenm]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

I mooney'ed that claim because it struck me as extremely unlikely

It turns out I was right to do so - Their "manifesto" (link to pdf)  which they publish every year (I think) contains the pledge

 

I've been following along long enough to know that their comments and rhetoric don't back that up at all. I shouldn't really have brought official stances of 2 state solutions into it because it's a murky concept.

The BoD sees Israel as never doing wrong and it's always that Palestine is the aggressor. 

 

 

[darrenm]

3 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

Your response doesn’t seem to relate to the line you quoted from ‘bannedfromHandV’.

 

It does to me?

[LondonLax]

3 minutes ago, darrenm said:

It does to me?

The line says “every person who wants Palestine obliterated is Jewish” but you seemed to answer it as if he had said “every Jewish person wants Palestine obliterated” and started talking about some Jewish people not wanting that to happen, instead of talking about potential non Jewish people who do want Palestine obliterated. 

[HanoiVillan]

18 minutes ago, blandy said:

I mooney'ed that claim because it struck me as extremely unlikely

It turns out I was right to do so - Their "manifesto" (link to pdf)  which they publish every year (I think) contains the pledge

 

 

13 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Lot of weasel words there.

Yeah, I mean it is literally true that they say they want a viable Palestinian state, but I am yet to see any evidence of them supporting any policy that might meaningfully increase the chance of that happening.

I don't see any reference to settlements, for instance.

[blandy]

17 minutes ago, darrenm said:

I've been following along long enough to know that their comments and rhetoric don't back that up at all. I shouldn't really have brought official stances of 2 state solutions into it because it's a murky concept.

The BoD sees Israel as never doing wrong and it's always that Palestine is the aggressor. 

 

 

I can't see tweets from work, but there's two things here, and they are seperate, IMO.

Firstly, clearly, the assertion that "The British Board of Deputies don't support Palestine's right to exist" is not true.

Secondly, perhaps unsurprisingly condemnation of the recent (any) rocket attacks on Israel or suicide bombings or whatever is absolutely valid, whoever says it. It doesn't matter the cause, the religion, the rationale - indiscriminate murder and terrorism by whoever is wrong.

Where I think there is some criticism to be made is that (from limited reading) the BoD seems rather blind when it comes to Israel's actions against Palestinians. You'd hope that criticism of bombing and oppression and all the rest of it would be universal, regardless of the same things I just mentioned - religion, rationale, nation etc. But that's quite a way and very different from the original assertion - Like I said I found it surprising, but didn't know until checking - I'm not having a dig, I just like to have a clear picture of the truth, or as close to it as we can get amongst the fog.

[darrenm]

31 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

The line says “every person who wants Palestine obliterated is Jewish” but you seemed to answer it as if he had said “every Jewish person wants Palestine obliterated” and started talking about some Jewish people not wanting that to happen, instead of talking about potential non Jewish people who do want Palestine obliterated. 

You're right. I had a train of thought and replied to something else I then started thinking about.