Israel, Palestine and Iran

[A'Villan]

14 minutes ago, maqroll said:

I'd say we have every right to judge and a moral responsibility to so, as people and as citizens. 

Finally some democracy.

[Xela]

6 hours ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

The PLF are not happy.

Penguin Liberation Front

[villakram]

Ceasefire announced.

The victory statements should be fun.

[TheAuthority]

16 hours ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said:

The PLF are not happy.

Penguin Liberation Front

Splitters!

[Glarmorgan]

On 19/05/2021 at 21:43, villakram said:

There is unanimous consensus among the "Israeli" parties that the "arab" representatives must never be allowed into government. Hence, the issue with all these elections recently, most evident when those 15 representatives were not considered during the previous potential governing scenarios.

What do you think of the attack on Al Aqsa during Ramadan? Or the systematic ejection of "non-desirables" from Jerusalem?

I don't know how to break rhe quotations, so I'll answer in points.

1. First - your are not accurate. There was an Arab minister some years back. There were and are Arab PMs who are part of the "Israeli" parties. Not enough - I agree, but there are. You are talking of the Arab  parties. which were never a part of the government. There are  big differences between the Arab parties and a general dislike among themselves. There is the Communist party (which also include Jewish members), there's the Islamic party (RA'AM) and there is an Arab-National party (BALAD) and a one-man-party (TA'AL), lead by Ahmad Tibi, past advisor for Arafat. Up until recently, the general mistrust and the was these parties conducted their parliamentary activity deemed them impossible to cooperate with. At the same time - they refused to be a part of the government, as they don't want to be accountable for the Israeli government deeds.

This was changes a couple of elections ago, as the unified Arab party decided to be more active and to support Benny Gantz. The last election saw the United Arab party breaking up, as the Islamic party declared they wish to be a part of the government, in oppose to the other 2 parties who wish to "support the government from the outside" at the most, while BALAD refuse to take any part, in any way. This decision by Mansur Abbas, the leader of the Islamic Party was a game changer, and Even Netanyahu tried to get their support. 

2. Al Aqsa - I am not an expert. It seems that the breaking in and the use of stun guns was foolish, to say the least. At the same time I have to say there was a reason for the Police to intervene, as violent acts errupted "To save El Aqsa" or something like that, as if El Aqsa was under any danger. The religious acts bring a lot of heat...

3. Just this morning I read a long column, analyzing the situation in Sheikh Jerakh (or however its spelled in English). From a legal point of view - it seems the Jewish settlers there have the advantage. It's long and complicated, but all in all - the houses there are owned by Jewish groups and the Arab habitants refused to pay their monthly rent. In general, this is a civilian issue and the state of Israel has got nothing to do with it. As far as I know, there is no official plan to settle in East Jerusalem or to eject "non-desirables" from there. This is mainly an issue of the extreme right-wing groups here. In my opinion - settling in the middle of a hostile Arab population is not the smart nor the right thing to do, and I say that as a person who works in a mixed-city,  working with Arab and Jewish teens.

 

 

[Glarmorgan]

On 20/05/2021 at 00:24, magnkarl said:

And no one disagrees. What rubs me the wrong way is the total neglect in actually understanding why Israel has hit back when invaded by pretty much all of their neighbours more times than most of us in the west have ever experienced. It wasn’t Israel that made Egypt invade them and lose Gaza, it was Egypt’s warmongering leader funded by Soviet and other nations. Would you give way if your neighbour daily broadcasted that he’d murder your family and raise your house to the ground? That’s the sentiment that Benny and his racist ilk is playing at, and sadly for Jews it’s a very recurring theme in our history. The fact that Israelis seem to elect tank commanders over politicians doesn’t make it any easier.

Are we forgetting that PLO were far from a peace keeping faction? Hamas thrives in the chaos brought by Israeli bombing and will never stop being what they are until Israel stops bombing them. It’s a vicious circle. Rockets lobbed at Israel makes them elect benny-types, bombs lobbed at Gaza makes them elect Hamas-types.

In general, people tend to over simplify the situation here. I quite understand this and that's why I decided not to try and get too deep as people who live in the UK or the US or wherever can't really understand what's going on here. One reads Chomsky or Pepe and thinks he knows better than me. Well - he doesn't. The next day he gets up and travel to wherever, while I get up and go to Ramla, teaching Jews and Arabs in high school. 

The situation is way more complicated. It consists of general mistrust, of past grudges, or Iranian forces mixing things, on families on both sides of the border and so on.

People always try to find the one to blame, whether Netanyahu or Abbas or whoever. But there is no one to blame. There's no "Hitler" to replace with a peace faring leader. There are people here who had a wretched history and need to find the way to live together. This is not easy, as recent acts of violent acts within Israel show. This takes time and will power. In most polls, most Israelis support the two state solution, but at the same time - say this is a problem due to the general mistrust. What if Hamas would win the election and gain leadership in the west bank? Qalqilia is some 20kms from Tel Aviv. 9kms from Netanya. They won't need long rage rockets. They'll need mediocre snipers to do the damage. That's all. 

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, Glarmorgan said:

In general, people tend to over simplify the situation here. I quite understand this and that's why I decided not to try and get too deep as people who live in the UK or the US or wherever can't really understand what's going on here. One reads Chomsky or Pepe and thinks he knows better than me. Well - he doesn't. The next day he gets up and travel to wherever, while I get up and go to Ramla, teaching Jews and Arabs in high school. 

The situation is way more complicated. It consists of general mistrust, of past grudges, or Iranian forces mixing things, on families on both sides of the border and so on.

People always try to find the one to blame, whether Netanyahu or Abbas or whoever. But there is no one to blame. There's no "Hitler" to replace with a peace faring leader. There are people here who had a wretched history and need to find the way to live together. This is not easy, as recent acts of violent acts within Israel show. This takes time and will power. In most polls, most Israelis support the two state solution, but at the same time - say this is a problem due to the general mistrust. What if Hamas would win the election and gain leadership in the west bank? Qalqilia is some 20kms from Tel Aviv. 9kms from Netanya. They won't need long rage rockets. They'll need mediocre snipers to do the damage. That's all. 

You mention Iranian forces but don’t mention US funding.

You don’t need to have a presence on the ground to know that indigenous people driven off their land and provoked to violent resistance are then be killed as terrorists. When it’s basic moral behaviour, it can be done remotely.

Families are being bombed and killed, displaced, made homeless, economically and physically crippled. It perpetuates the cycle. It is deliberate. It is ethnic cleansing.

Both sides want to do it, but Israel has the support of the west and the wallet of the US.

In your first post, you reference that land is Jewish owned. Was it Jewish before 1947? Or did it somehow become acquired with the help of a race based legal system?

Both sides are absolutely to blame. Israel has more power, more money, more resource and the upper hand. It is incumbent upon Israel not to murder people to gain land for one group over another. You cannot push people off their land and out of their homes and then kill them as a terrorist because they resisted.

If it happened to you or me, isn’t there a chance we would do the same?

 

 

 

[TheAuthority]

Don't expect an answer @chrisp65 - at least not one which addresses your points in a reasoned manner.

I came across this thread which talks about why Israelis are the understand the situation  the LEAST of anyone in the world.

 

[Jareth]

180,000 people in London today for the Palestine march and also in other cities - you wouldn't know it from the media coverage - the Guardian have given it a tiny sub heading, the BBC news homepage not even mentioning it. What exactly can one conclude from that?

[chrisp65]

42 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

Don't expect an answer @chrisp65 - at least not one which addresses your points in a reasoned manner.

I came across this thread which talks about why Israelis are the understand the situation  the LEAST of anyone in the world.

It’s a real shame, because it could be so insightful to have someone ‘on the ground’ as it were. But I do read a massive bias there and I end up just trying to work out if it is an account trying to muddy the waters, trying to be an apologist. Or, if its genuinely someone’s honest opinion and they are too close to one side to see the bias. To call out Iran for interference and not acknowledge the permission to kill that’s given by the U.S., to say that Arabs are refusing to pay rent on Jewish land.

I mean, it’s fascinating. But it doesn’t come over as particularly self aware. I realise that this can look like post on poster. It’s not meant in that way. I’d happily have more of a conversation, I’m really interested in why someone would be using the name ‘glamorgan’ for a start. But it does feel like an account that only pops up when there are war crimes to defend and deflect and get some whataboutism going.

I have a mental picture of a call centre in a bunker being called in to action because there’s a hospital or a block of flats about to be dropped.

 

[TheAuthority]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

I have a mental picture of a call centre in a bunker being called in to action because there’s a hospital or a block of flats about to be dropped.

 

Thats been my assessment for quite a long time. 

[sne]

 

Quote

Backed by Israeli police, Jewish settlers storm Al-Aqsa compound

The incident comes as a fragile ceasefire holds in the besieged Gaza, days after the end of a 11-day Israeli bombing campaign.

Dozens of Jewish settlers, flanked by heavily armed Israeli special forces, stormed the Al-Aqsa Mosque compound in occupied East Jerusalem in the early morning, hours after Palestinian worshippers were beaten and assaulted by Israeli police, according to the Islamic authority overseeing the site.

Citing witnesses, Palestinian news agency WAFA said Israeli police had earlier on Sunday assaulted Palestinian worshippers who were performing dawn prayers at the mosque and “excessively beat” them in order to make way for Israeli Jewish settlers to storm the compound – Islam’s third-holiest site.

WAFA added that at least six Palestinians had been arrested, including Fadi Alyan, a guard at the Al-Aqsa Mosque who tried to film the incident, and Ali Wazouz, an employee of the Islamic Waqf Council, the religious body appointed by Jordan to oversee the Al-Aqsa compound

Israeli police also increased restrictions at the gates leading to Al-Aqsa, barring worshippers under the age of 45 from entering the mosque.

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/5/23/backed-by-israeli-police-jewish-settlers-storm-al-aqsa-compound

[maqroll]

I have an American Jewish Facebook friend who posts mostly progressive left wing political stuff. Until recently. Now it's Israeli flags, "I Stand With Israel", #stopantisemitism", etc. The disconnect is stark, and I don't think he realizes it.

[a-k]

On 21/05/2021 at 16:30, chrisp65 said:

In your first post, you reference that land is Jewish owned. Was it Jewish before 1947? Or did it somehow become acquired with the help of a race based legal system?

The land in Sheikh Jarrah that is now under "dispute" was purchased by Jews in the late 1800s...

https://www.ngo-monitor.org/sheikh-jarrah-property-claims/

 

On 21/05/2021 at 16:30, chrisp65 said:

Both sides are absolutely to blame. Israel has more power, more money, more resource and the upper hand. It is incumbent upon Israel not to murder people to gain land for one group over another. You cannot push people off their land and out of their homes and then kill them as a terrorist because they resisted.

If it happened to you or me, isn’t there a chance we would do the same?

Jews and Arab Muslims have both lived in that region for centuries. Regarding this current "conflict" stretching back ~80 years, one side wanted peace from the beginning and another didn't. What did the side who didn't want peace do? They attacked the side that wanted peace on numerous occasions. What was the result? The side that didn't want peace lost all wars they started and as a result lost land that was captured during war. Ever since then, said side has been complaining about losing land as a result of their own actions.

[chrisp65]

7 minutes ago, a-k said:

The land in Sheikh Jarrah that is now under "dispute" was purchased by Jews in the late 1800s...

https://www.ngo-monitor.org/sheikh-jarrah-property-claims/

 

Jews and Arab Muslims have both lived in that region for centuries. Regarding this current "conflict" stretching back ~80 years, one side wanted peace from the beginning and another didn't. What did the side who didn't want peace do? They attacked the side that wanted peace on numerous occasions. What was the result? The side that didn't want peace lost all wars they started and as a result lost land that was captured during war. Ever since then, said side has been complaining about losing land as a result of their own actions.

Thanks for the response.

But the first thing I did was look up NGO Monitor, and it appears to be a politically motivated pro Israeli organisation funded largely by wealthy U.S. based pro Israelis.

I think my initial suspicion was when you said one group has wanted peace from the beginning and one side didn’t.

I might want peace as I take houses and land off my neighbour. I’m not sure I’d get any. But that wouldn’t automatically be my neighbour’s fault. Would it?

It’s telling whilst the blinkered look at Sheikh Jarrah suggests these are Jewish owned properties that Jewish people should be legally able to reclaim, this NGO Monitor site makes no mention of why Arab people are there. They were dispossessed in the ‘one side wants peace’ civil war of 1948 but cannot claim a similar reclamation of their lands. It’s a one way law that has lead to a one way court ruling.

But I do acknowledge that at least you gave an answer, and it was interesting. Where other people dip in, claim something, and disappear until next time there is ethnic cleansing to excuse.

Horrible situation on both sides. Equality under the law could be a start to righting some wrongs for both sides. Plus some war crimes charges.

[a-k]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Thanks for the response.

But the first thing I did was look up NGO Monitor, and it appears to be a politically motivated pro Israeli organisation funded largely by wealthy U.S. based pro Israelis.

I think my initial suspicion was when you said one group has wanted peace from the beginning and one side didn’t.

I might want peace as I take houses and land off my neighbour. I’m not sure I’d get any. But that wouldn’t automatically be my neighbour’s fault. Would it?

It’s telling whilst the blinkered look at Sheikh Jarrah suggests these are Jewish owned properties that Jewish people should be legally able to reclaim, this NGO Monitor site makes no mention of why Arab people are there. They were dispossessed in the ‘one side wants peace’ civil war of 1948 but cannot claim a similar reclamation of their lands. It’s a one way law that has lead to a one way court ruling.

But I do acknowledge that at least you gave an answer, and it was interesting. Where other people dip in, claim something, and disappear until next time there is ethnic cleansing to excuse.

Horrible situation on both sides. Equality under the law could be a start to righting some wrongs for both sides. Plus some war crimes charges.

I'm not sure what a website's affiliation has to do with a quotation from the Supreme Court saying that land was purchased by Jews in 1875.

The largest proportion of Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews, whose ancestors came to Israel from countries such as Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, etc. Now ask yourself (1) why did these people leave those countries in the first place, (2) did they leave voluntarily or were they "pushed out", (3) would their descendants be welcome back there?

The populations in the West Bank and Gaza are both increasingly at around 3% per year. That's a pretty poor job of ethnic cleansing.

[chrisp65]

1 hour ago, a-k said:

I'm not sure what a website's affiliation has to do with a quotation from the Supreme Court saying that land was purchased by Jews in 1875.

The largest proportion of Jews in Israel are Mizrahi Jews, whose ancestors came to Israel from countries such as Iraq, Iran, Yemen, Syria, Tunisia, Morocco, Algeria, Egypt, etc. Now ask yourself (1) why did these people leave those countries in the first place, (2) did they leave voluntarily or were they "pushed out", (3) would their descendants be welcome back there?

The populations in the West Bank and Gaza are both increasingly at around 3% per year. That's a pretty poor job of ethnic cleansing.

It’s relevant because its a partial truth.

You can’t simply say it’s about obeying the law, when the law itself is racially biased. I can be kicked off your land, legally, but you can’t be kicked off my land legally. To only say the first half is to conceal a truth that is fundamental to the story.

I wouldn’t claim for a second that Jews have it any better in Iraq or Iran. I’ve never claimed that, but it’s simply not an excuse for bombing blocks of flats in densely populated areas and killing children as punishment for others. It just perpetuates the hate. It is an admission they have no intention of reaching any conclusion other than victory by the most despicable illegal immoral means.

It’s layers of an onion, whatever ‘whatabout’ either side can point at, the other side will trump with something else. There is no victory to be had in trying to prove ‘who started it’ or who is worse.

Ethnic cleansing doesn’t have an optimum speed.

 

 

 

[Glarmorgan]

On 21/05/2021 at 16:30, chrisp65 said:

You mention Iranian forces but don’t mention US funding.

You don’t need to have a presence on the ground to know that indigenous people driven off their land and provoked to violent resistance are then be killed as terrorists. When it’s basic moral behaviour, it can be done remotely.

Families are being bombed and killed, displaced, made homeless, economically and physically crippled. It perpetuates the cycle. It is deliberate. It is ethnic cleansing.

Both sides want to do it, but Israel has the support of the west and the wallet of the US.

In your first post, you reference that land is Jewish owned. Was it Jewish before 1947? Or did it somehow become acquired with the help of a race based legal system?

Both sides are absolutely to blame. Israel has more power, more money, more resource and the upper hand. It is incumbent upon Israel not to murder people to gain land for one group over another. You cannot push people off their land and out of their homes and then kill them as a terrorist because they resisted.

If it happened to you or me, isn’t there a chance we would do the same?

 

 

 

This is why I am trying to look at things at a wider angle as possible. I can't "blame" the Palestinians for doing what they're doing, since I am not living their lives. What I do know is that you look at things from a western point of view, just as I do, and this is why it is extremely difficult to understand the situations.

Everyone here has to remember one thing - the last chapter of Gaza-Israel was was initiated by Hammas. They decided to launch rockets at Jerusalem with no Israeli provocation. You can claim there is misjustice in Sheikh Jerakh or some foolish acts of the Israeli police in Al Aqsa. Still, these issued brought Hammas to launch their rockets at civilians in Jerusalem. What would one expect Israel, to ignore? Israel is more powerful, and for me - that's a good thing and as an Israeli citizen - I want my super strong army to retaliate against someone who just feels like launching rockets at my Capital city, because they don't like the way the Israeli police conducts itself. The fact that the IDF is stronger should be taken under consideration by the Hammas, before trying to make attacking move.

There is no territorial dispute with Gaza. Israel withdrew completely, demolished all the settlements. There is no one Israeli, nor Jewish man or woman in Gaza strip. The only thing Israel does - is to close the border with Gaza, as its being ruled by an entity calling for its destruction. Mind you - there's another country bordering with Gaza, so they can move freely to Sinay and Egypt, and indeed, many of the Gazans found their way to El Qaeeda forces in Sinay...

And as I stated before - I won't get into who's more just. I still think that people are not really aware to the whole picture, and that's quite understandable. I guess I would think the same if it was a conflict being run thousands of Kilometers from me. 

You also need to remember that the last conflict brought some inside eruption of violence, mainly from the Israeli-Arab population. Not the majority, but still - it happened. As a person who works in a mixed city, this is not only worrying, but also hampering the good relationships between the residents of such cities.

[Glarmorgan]

20 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

It’s relevant because its a partial truth.

You can’t simply say it’s about obeying the law, when the law itself is racially biased. I can be kicked off your land, legally, but you can’t be kicked off my land legally. To only say the first half is to conceal a truth that is fundamental to the story.

I wouldn’t claim for a second that Jews have it any better in Iraq or Iran. I’ve never claimed that, but it’s simply not an excuse for bombing blocks of flats in densely populated areas and killing children as punishment for others. It just perpetuates the hate. It is an admission they have no intention of reaching any conclusion other than victory by the most despicable illegal immoral means.

It’s layers of an onion, whatever ‘whatabout’ either side can point at, the other side will trump with something else. There is no victory to be had in trying to prove ‘who started it’ or who is worse.

Ethnic cleansing doesn’t have an optimum speed.

 

 

 

I totally disagree. The Israeli court is not racial and in fact, is under a lot of fire from the Right wing parties, as they claim it's too leftist and takes care of Palestinians more than the Jewish. 

[KenjiOgiwara]

14 minutes ago, Glarmorgan said:

Everyone here has to remember one thing - the last chapter of Gaza-Israel was was initiated by Hammas.

Didn’t Israel initially occupy more land that didn't belong to them. A bunch of palestinians protested. Then Israel invaded the Al-aqsa Mosque armed during prayer. Give or take?

And you some how make the palestinians the initator? Alright then.