Israel, Palestine and Iran

[villakram]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

Nope. Irony: a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result.

Thou doth protest too much methinks, good Sir!

[chrisp65]

There’s not too much the families in Palestine can do at present about their Iran backed ‘leaders’.

There’s quite a lot the people of Israel can do about the U.S. funded war crimes carried out in their name.

I know there are people here that want a very precise definition and we must describe the deeds of specific Israeli politicians and military leaders. But they are there with the consent of a large group of the Israeli voting public.

I’m not using ‘Israeli’ as a cover for anything else. Don’t read between the lines. People vote for these murdering bastards, so they are murdering bastards. They just wear civvies and get someone else to send the smart bombs to kill children.

[magnkarl]

15 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

There’s not too much the families in Palestine can do at present about their Iran backed ‘leaders’.

There’s quite a lot the people of Israel can do about the U.S. funded war crimes carried out in their name.

I know there are people here that want a very precise definition and we must describe the deeds of specific Israeli politicians and military leaders. But they are there with the consent of a large group of the Israeli voting public.

I’m not using ‘Israeli’ as a cover for anything else. Don’t read between the lines. People vote for these murdering bastards, so they are murdering bastards. They just wear civvies and get someone else to send the smart bombs to kill children.

And no one disagrees. What rubs me the wrong way is the total neglect in actually understanding why Israel has hit back when invaded by pretty much all of their neighbours more times than most of us in the west have ever experienced. It wasn’t Israel that made Egypt invade them and lose Gaza, it was Egypt’s warmongering leader funded by Soviet and other nations. Would you give way if your neighbour daily broadcasted that he’d murder your family and raise your house to the ground? That’s the sentiment that Benny and his racist ilk is playing at, and sadly for Jews it’s a very recurring theme in our history. The fact that Israelis seem to elect tank commanders over politicians doesn’t make it any easier.

Are we forgetting that PLO were far from a peace keeping faction? Hamas thrives in the chaos brought by Israeli bombing and will never stop being what they are until Israel stops bombing them. It’s a vicious circle. Rockets lobbed at Israel makes them elect benny-types, bombs lobbed at Gaza makes them elect Hamas-types.

Edited May 19, 2021 by magnkarl

[Keyblade]

4 hours ago, Chindie said:

 

 

Standard.

Like clockwork. Every time.

 

 

[HanoiVillan]

Hegemony is a powerful thing.

[chrisp65]

27 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

And no one disagrees. What rubs me the wrong way is the total neglect in actually understanding why Israel has hit back when invaded by pretty much all of their neighbours more times than most of us in the west have ever experienced. It wasn’t Israel that made Egypt invade them and lose Gaza, it was Egypt’s warmongering leader funded by Soviet and other nations. Would you give way if your neighbour daily broadcasted that he’d murder your family and raise your house to the ground? That’s the sentiment that Benny and his racist ilk is playing at, and sadly for Jews it’s a very recurring theme in our history. The fact that Israelis seem to elect tank commanders over politicians doesn’t make it any easier.

Are we forgetting that PLO were far from a peace keeping faction? Hamas thrives in the chaos brought by Israeli bombing and will never stop being what they are until Israel stops bombing them. It’s a vicious circle. Rockets lobbed at Israel makes them elect benny-types, bombs lobbed at Gaza makes them elect Hamas-types.

We can all try to outbid each other on what war was because of what action prior to that. Neither side can claim to simply be hitting back.

But it doesn’t change the fact that many Israelis are voting for this action because in 2021 they still haven’t worked out that they are currently planting the seeds of the ‘war’ ten years from now, when the next generation throw rocks at soldiers and get shot in return. So shitty unguided rockets get fired, which leads to missile firing drones dropping entire tower blocks in built up areas. And around we do again.

I’m not backing the violence from either side here. I’m pointing out that Israeli people perpetually vote for this to continue, so I’m not interest in getting overly specific in needing to describe the political state of Israel, when I say Israel.

It’s just so desperately pointlessly infuriatingly sad that both sides can handle it so badly for so long.

[TheAuthority]

10 hours ago, Glarmorgan said:

I tend not to get into these discussion (as I find it hard to stand to the heat). Just wanted to say this is not accurate. 

If we'll look into the Israeli parliament - there are currently 10 Arab PMs (out of 120). They had 15, but the Arab party broke down and they lost some strength...

 

When you get to the Jewish parties - there is only one party which I can say is racist, and it consists of 6 PMs which were heavily backed by Netnayahu. These are the only ones who consider the Palestinians and the Israeli Arabs as inferior.

The rest of the right wing parties (Bennet, New Hope, Likkud) think that a two state solution is not a viable solution and their approach to this changes. Bennet, for instance, supports the annexation of the West Bank and the assimilation of the Palestinians in Israel. Hence, one big happy country. The Likkud is more into stalling, avoiding dealing with this issue. Mainly aiming towards a self governing Palestinian regime in the West Bank, as it is now.

The rest of the parties sees the two state solution as a viable one. The discussion is when and how. The fact that there's a different rulers in the West Bank and Gaza makes this more complicated, since there are practically two Palestinian entities at the moment. I think this suits most of the parties now.

1. Hamas draws its power from the conflict in Israel. They wish to sustain it in some level. The rockets launched at Jerusalem  last week are a good example. I don't think Hamas foresaw what's coming, as in most cases Israel retaliates quite softly to rocket attacks.

2. The Palestinian Authority is weak and the chance they'll lose to Hamas in General elections is quite high. The Palestinian Authority relies and cooperates with Israel to maintain relatively peaceful lives in the West Bank, as the Palestinian economy is dependent on Israel - mayn Palestinians work here, they export their merchandise into Israel and the Israeli-Arabs go to their stores to enjoy the cheaper prices.  So they say harsh things, but in the end - they are still in control and that's what's important to them.

3. There is a general mistrust in Israel towards the Palestinians (leave aside who's fault is it as I don't think we'll come to an agreement over this), so stalling works just fine to Netanyahu who doesn't need to deal with this explosive issue. He uses Hamas aggressiveness to his benefit, making sure Hamas stays in control, hence - weakening the General Palestinian interests.

 

 

Oh look. The Israeli PR machine has shown up again after a few years. Wonder why.

Please take your racist, apartheid, murdering state and shove it up your arse.

I can't believe my taxes in the US support this.

The fact that the Israeli state seems intent on enacting a similar sort of suffering that was imposed upon the Jewish people of Europe in the middle of the 20th century is beyond my comprehension.

I knew some Israeli Zionists - they are turning in their grave. And have been for decades.

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by TheAuthority

[bannedfromHandV]

12 hours ago, magnkarl said:

And no one disagrees. What rubs me the wrong way is the total neglect in actually understanding why Israel has hit back when invaded by pretty much all of their neighbours more times than most of us in the west have ever experienced. It wasn’t Israel that made Egypt invade them and lose Gaza, it was Egypt’s warmongering leader funded by Soviet and other nations. Would you give way if your neighbour daily broadcasted that he’d murder your family and raise your house to the ground? That’s the sentiment that Benny and his racist ilk is playing at, and sadly for Jews it’s a very recurring theme in our history. The fact that Israelis seem to elect tank commanders over politicians doesn’t make it any easier.

Are we forgetting that PLO were far from a peace keeping faction? Hamas thrives in the chaos brought by Israeli bombing and will never stop being what they are until Israel stops bombing them. It’s a vicious circle. Rockets lobbed at Israel makes them elect benny-types, bombs lobbed at Gaza makes them elect Hamas-types.

But then that’s the point isn’t it, Egypt won’t have seen it as an invasion as they believe they shouldn’t have been there anyway, how can you invade something that doesn’t exist (or at least, had been artificially created just a few years prior).

Israel should never have been created, whatever the whys and wherefores of it all the simple fact is that the western world, led by Britain as we controlled the territory from an administrative perspective after WW2, decided to just section off an entire area of what was Palestine, dump all the Jews there because no one else really wanted them and didn’t know what to do with them and just assume the people displaced would accept it lying down.

Israel is illegitimate almost any way you look at it.

 

[chrisp65]

19 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

But then that’s the point isn’t it, Egypt won’t have seen it as an invasion as they believe they shouldn’t have been there anyway, how can you invade something that doesn’t exist (or at least, had been artificially created just a few years prior).

Israel should never have been created, whatever the whys and wherefores of it all the simple fact is that the western world, led by Britain as we controlled the territory from an administrative perspective after WW2, decided to just section off an entire area of what was Palestine, dump all the Jews there because no one else really wanted them and didn’t know what to do with them and just assume the people displaced would accept it lying down.

Israel is illegitimate almost any way you look at it.

 

So you would return it to the Ottoman Empire?

What date in the last 5,000 years do you see as the definitive one?

The Pharoahs had it for a while, the Holy Roman Empire, Assyrians, the Fatimid Caliphate. We had a go between the two world wars. It just is not that simple.

Edited May 20, 2021 by chrisp65

[bannedfromHandV]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

So you would return it to the Ottoman Empire?

What date in the last 5,000 years do you see as the definitive one?

The Pharoahs had it for a while, the Holy Roman Empire, Assyrians, the Fatimid Caliphate. We had a go between the two world wars. It just is not that simple.

I don’t know who would be classed as the ‘rightful’ indigenous people but given that Israel didn’t exist until 1948 I’d say they have the least valid claim on the land, and yet are without doubt the biggest aggressor.

[chrisp65]

18 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I don’t know who would be classed as the ‘rightful’ indigenous people but given that Israel didn’t exist until 1948 I’d say they have the least valid claim on the land, and yet are without doubt the biggest aggressor.

I’d say right now they are the most powerful aggressor due to the funding they receive from the U.S. that they use at least in part to buy UK weapons. Perhaps if the UK and US would supply the Gaza Strip in similar ways we’d have a new prime aggressor?

I don’t doubt for a second that if Iran or Egypt, Syria or Jordan thought they could wipe Israel out at some point in recent history, they would have. Israeli retaliation is disproportionate. Their ethnic cleansing is disgusting. Their racist legal system is disgusting. I don’t think the average family would be much improved with Hammas, Iran, or Syria in control.

Israel didn’t exist when the Ottoman Empire collapsed at the end of WW1, and neither did Lebanon or Jordan or Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia… there really isn’t a good correct knee jerk solution to be had anywhere.

But none of that is good reason for the state of Israel not to exist in some form.

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by chrisp65

[lapal_fan]

14 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I’d say right now they are the most powerful aggressor due to the funding they receive from the U.S. that they use at least in part to buy UK weapons. Perhaps if the UK and US would supply the Gaza Strip in similar ways we’d have a new prime aggressor?

I don’t doubt for a second that if Iran or Egypt, Syria or Jordan thought they could wipe Israel out at some point in recent history, they would have. Israeli retaliation is disproportionate. Their ethnic cleansing is disgusting. Their racist legal system is disgusting. I don’t think the average family would be much improved with Hammas, Iran, or Syria in control.

Israel didn’t exist when the Ottoman Empire collapsed at the end of WW1, and neither did Lebanon or Jordan or Syria, Iraq, Saudi Arabia… there really isn’t a good correct knee jerk solution to be had anywhere.

But none of that is good reason for the state of Israel not to exist in some form.

 

 

Has anyone seen how big Russia is?  And how unpopulated most of it is?  

Try there now I reckon - easy peasy. 

[chrisp65]

Just now, lapal_fan said:

Has anyone seen how big Russia is?  And how unpopulated most of it is?  

Try there now I reckon - easy peasy. 

We’re you by any chance in charge of drawing maps for the British government over the last 100 years? That’s pretty much the criteria we’ve used, from Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan being both sides of India…

UK government cartographers have probably killed more people than Vlad the Impaler managed.

[lapal_fan]

11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

We’re you by any chance in charge of drawing maps for the British government over the last 100 years? That’s pretty much the criteria we’ve used, from Africa, the Middle East, Pakistan being both sides of India…

UK government cartographers have probably killed more people than Vlad the Impaler managed.

Very much tongue in cheek.   

We all know Antarctica should be the place to home Jewish people, you can just boot a penguin and they'll **** right off. 

[magnkarl]

1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said:

I don’t know who would be classed as the ‘rightful’ indigenous people but given that Israel didn’t exist until 1948 I’d say they have the least valid claim on the land, and yet are without doubt the biggest aggressor.

Cool cool. We should all evacuate Britain to the Brits and Celts as most of us are not 'from here' too then I presume? Typical argument from someone who lives in a country that has been sheltered from anything similar to what goes on in the Middle East since WW2. 'Put them here, put them there' 'They have no right!'. 'We' invaded Iraq twice because of bogus claims, we invaded Afghanistan, Korea, various African countries. 'We' have no right to judge countries for dropping bombs when we're one of the main perpetrators of said tactic for as long as it was a thing.

'We' elected the governments that exterminated Africans in the boer wars, went to war over oil, enforced insane famine on India++++.

Edited May 20, 2021 by magnkarl

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

53 minutes ago, lapal_fan said:

We all know Antarctica should be the place to home Jewish people, you can just boot a penguin and they'll **** right off. 

The PLF are not happy.

Penguin Liberation Front

[bannedfromHandV]

40 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Cool cool. We should all evacuate Britain to the Brits and Celts as most of us are not 'from here' too then I presume? Typical argument from someone who lives in a country that has been sheltered from anything similar to what goes on in the Middle East since WW2. 'Put them here, put them there' 'They have no right!'. 'We' invaded Iraq twice because of bogus claims, we invaded Afghanistan, Korea, various African countries. 'We' have no right to judge countries for dropping bombs when we're one of the main perpetrators of said tactic for as long as it was a thing.

'We' elected the governments that exterminated Africans in the boer wars, went to war over oil, enforced insane famine on India++++.

What a pointless post.

So because I’m British I can’t have a view on foreign matters? 

[Mic09]

2 hours ago, lapal_fan said:

Has anyone seen how big Russia is?  And how unpopulated most of it is?  

Try there now I reckon - easy peasy. 

You laugh but since the Zionist move has started (late 19th century) there have been a wide range of possible places (Russia included) for a new Jewish territory. Holy Land wasn't a viable option for many reasons so alternatives were discussed. 

Prior to that, most Jews lived relatively happily in central Europe so a country as such was not seen as 'necessity' by most. Of course, they were often 'picked on' but so were other minorities that were different. If a new neighbour moves next to you, doesn't eat the same food, dresses differently, speaks a different language, well, they will be outcasted in one way or another.

In the early 20th century (pre and during 2nd world war) the Zionist and self defensive movements created a massive immigration of Jews to the Holy Land. That resulted in numerous Arabic revolts and fighting. So the state of Israel in itself isn't a problem, the problem of violence existed even before 1948.   

But, I can only imagine that while many Arabs were unhappy with their new neighbours, they were rightly pissed off when their families were resettled in order to create a, for a lack of a better word, artificial new country on what was their land. And if that land is backed by the biggest military power who supplies them with weapons which, often unjustifiably, are used against women and children, well, I'd be pissed off too. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by Mic09

[darrenm]

Quote

 

ere lives a family uprooted from a nearby village. We had an appointment with Hajjeh Im Samir to accompany her there. Her [ailing] husband insisted on coming with us because he said the air of Ijzim is the best cure.

Despite its beauty, the road there seems desolate as if it gets you to the place but doesn’t take you there. Eagerly, Im Samir organizes our tour for us and tells us the names of the [Palestinian] owners of the houses.

Our first stop is God’s house. Its stones have been preserved as they were. Alone, the colors of its locked doors change each time the dryness of the seasons intensifies.

Here, Abu Samir does not stay in the car because this stop [station] is the location for which he has most longed in order to banish the other stations of his life. “This was our house, my father’s house. After the ’48 wars, the Jews occupied it.”

After a few minutes, the residents of the house come out to [the gate]. They ask us what we want. We say, this is the owner of the house; how do you feel living in a house built on the wreckage of his house? [The answer] Frankly, I don’t feel anything. I am very happy. Living here is very enjoyable.

How strange is the distance between the owner of the house and he who is occupying it. How strange is the irony between he who has to stand inside the gate and he who must stand outside the gate. How strong Abu Samir is! For other uprooted people have refused to accompany us [on our tour]. One of them told us that he cannot bear to glimpse through the window of his father’s house a foreigner living there.

 

from https://countercurrents.org/2020/05/jews-to-palestinian-whose-home-they-occupy-what-do-you-want/

Edited May 20, 2021 by darrenm

[maqroll]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

We' have no right to judge countries for dropping bombs when we're one of the main perpetrators of said tactic for as long as it was a thing.

I'd say we have every right to judge and a moral responsibility to do so, as people and as citizens. 

Edited May 20, 2021 by maqroll