Racism

[Risso]

6 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Pretty sure none of them have been racially abused. Just today BNP have sent out a Xmas card saying save our white christmas with Diane Abbot dressed as Santa. 

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Diane Abbott doesn't experience vile, hateful racism, probaby on a daily basis.  However, she gets a lot of completely warranted criticism in my opinion, that is nothing to do with racism.  Two separate issues.

[El Zen]

26 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Exactly! 

How long do we have to let history dictate to us what's right and wrong these days. Times have changed and we've moved on so much from all of that. I honestly think this race card will still be played in a thousand years. 

Even if we have made progress, it would be incredibly naive to think race isn’t still an issue. Even if it wasn’t, there are a lot of people still alive for whom Jim Crow is part of their personal history, not to mention their immediate ancestors’ history. I think it’s fair to let the wounds heal for a while longer before we ignore them or scratch at them. 

That’s not me saying that Antoine Griezman is necessarily a vile and evil racist. I’m just saying that blackface and a black person painting their face white is not the same thing. Because, y’know, history. 

[omariqy]

1 minute ago, Risso said:

I don't think anyone is suggesting that Diane Abbott doesn't experience vile, hateful racism, probaby on a daily basis.  However, she gets a lot of completely warranted criticism in my opinion, that is nothing to do with racism.  Two separate issues.

I agree but what I am saying she also gets abuse because of racism that is dressed up as criticism of her work when the same would not be the case for other MPs.

[omariqy]

Racism hasn't gone away though. It will never go away. Everyone has prejudices. Human nature. 

[Paddywhack]

[turvontour]

The White Chicks angle of this does confuse me. A huge $100m grossing movie that is on our TVs seemingly every other week, where two black actors portray spoilt white girls.

As someone who isn't privy to the history of the "blacking up" problems, its difficult to understand why it was so unacceptable for the darts guy and Griezmann to do what they did.

If it was the law/rules that you can't portray yourself as a black person then I wouldn't have too much of an issue with it, but it doesn't appear that too many people of the younger generation are aware of this being such a major issue.

[NurembergVillan]

26 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Pretty sure none of them have been racially abused. Just today BNP have sent out a Xmas card saying save our white christmas with Diane Abbot dressed as Santa. 

That'll be this thing.  Vile.

[Rodders]

25 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

I asked the question because I thought you might of known. I think white people have to carry the burden for things that happened in the past, so in a sense that is persecution.We have to be careful in what's we say and do because it gets slammed down as racist, but it's ok for a black person to do stuff. We can't even fly a flag for fear of being labelled racist. It's ok for a black person to call another black person a nigger, but if a white person did this there would be hell on and rightly so. I find black people just as racist as white people. I find that some of the more unsavoury ones will quickly play the race card which is a disgrace on many levels.

1. the problem is dismissing events as something that happened in the past. It wasn't minor. Racial discrimination wasn't just solved in a day. it has long lasting consequences and the context of words do matter. You can fly a flag, contrary to whatever you may think, and if someone judged you based on nothing more than that alone that person would be prejudiced. Unfortunately flag waving often ends up getting associated with fairly malignant viewpoints - or skinheads being racist etc, so people don't want those associations - it's your horrible racists who do more to make pride in a symbol like a flag a problem more than anyone else.

2. On the n word, you have to try and understand how different cultures and races have experienced the world, and why it is used-  only by some - who choose to appropriate it within their own community.  Personally, I realised I was being really dim even just partially defending some use of blackface ( focusing on intent ) , and forgetting that element of how words of deeds are received by other people.  This is not political correctness, this is empathy.

3. yes everyone can be racist , and it works multidirectionally sadly, white, black, brown, asian etc. It definitely isn't exclusive to white people.  But in communities where one community is largely dominant - i.e. white britain, there has been, a sad history of abuses of power, and unfair dominance.  It's a sad reflection on human culture to be sceptical and ignorant of people who are different, or rather just appear different. It isn't always easy to explain why we do this here and not that there, but accepting that history isn't confined to the past and still influences the present will help. We still have the same problems we did before, so repeating the same attitudes is not going to help.

4. Yes, there are probably instances  where sensitivity has on occasion ( we have 60 million odd people)  gone too far, but given the weight of history, a bit of zealous caution is preferable to aggravating other people for no reason.

Edited December 21, 2017 by Rodders

[Rugeley Villa]

1 minute ago, NurembergVillan said:

That'll be this thing.  Vile.

There are several things I find disturbing about this. 

[Rugeley Villa]

15 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

That's not a multicultural merry go round 

[Risso]

5 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

That'll be this thing.  Vile.

It's the BNP,  it's what they do.  Racists sending racist hate mail.

[rjw63]

11 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

Something about reading a load of white blokes arguing about what offends black people seems utterly pointless. 

Where is Sylvester when you need him

[snowychap]

37 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

I asked the question because I thought you might of known.

Don't throw it back on me. You're the one who has retreated to a notion of the 'white race being persecuted'. If you can't think of any relevant examples then perhaps you ought to put it out of your mind.

37 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

I think white people have to carry the burden for things that happened in the past, so in a sense that is oppression.

You what?

You've got to be kidding, surely?

37 minutes ago, Rugeley Villa said:

We have to be careful in what's we say and do because it gets slammed down as racist, but it's ok for a black person to do stuff. We can't even fly a flag for fear of being labelled racist. It's ok for a black person to call another black person a nigger, but if a white person did this there would be hell on and rightly so. I find black people just as racist as white people. I find that some of the more unsavoury ones will quickly play the race card which is a disgrace on many levels.

There is a great deal of difference between individuals being racist and races being persecuted. Anyone of any colour has the potential to be racist; no one is barred from being a racist simply because of the colour of their skin.

What we are essentially talking about here, though, is racial discrimation in the context of western society and not some abstract notion of who is susceptible to prejudice (as @omariqy says above, we all are). Even if there were not still any residue of the historical racial discrimination that existed in western society in even very recent times (and I think it would be very difficult to make that case), it would not be sensible to look at now outwith the context of history. That isn't to say the same thing that you suggested in that we are allowing history to dictate what is right or wrong now but rather that we are using history to help inform us (along with other things) as to what is right or wrong now. Edit: Or at least the way we ought to try to behave now.

Edited December 21, 2017 by snowychap

[Straggler]

1 hour ago, Risso said:

I think that conflating the two things is inherently wrong though.  Griezman clearly wasn't trying to denigrate an entire race, he was going to a fancy dress party as one of his sporting heroes.  His skin colour is different to that of the person he was dressing up as, so he had to put make up on.  Surely racism has to have some intent, or at least some sort of negative statement about race behind it?  How has equality been achieved if we're saying that it's not OK to dress up as another person, just because they have a different skin colour?

To be fair that is exactly the point I made in the post you quoted.  Griezman has more than likely no idea what he has done will be perceived as racist.  He has since found out the contest of what he has done, apologized and I imagine he will not do something similar again.  I don't have a problem with that interpretation at all.  He's done exactly what I asked having understood what he has done.  To my mind he is not a racist, who has by accident done something racist.  He has learned, he has altered his behaviour and moved on. 

Regards dressing up as someone else I feel that I am repeating myself time and time again.  You can dress up in the outfit of a Harlem Globetrotter to show you are a fan, just don't put on the black makeup.  I wore a Benteke shirt for a year and not once did I need to put the makeup on to show I was a fan of his.  I even posted a photo of how Ellen dressed up as Nikki Minaj.  It is so easy to dress up as your fav celeb without blacking up so I don't understand why the insistence on the need to do so.  If the outfit you want to wear requires black makeup then yes alter the outfit or choose another person to mimic, it is a small sacrifice to live in a more harmonious world.

Regards equality, it is no where near achieved and whilst there are still serious issues around race then being a little mindful of what you are doing in the world is not hard. 

[Risso]

6 minutes ago, Straggler said:

To be fair that is exactly the point I made in the post you quoted.  Griezman has more than likely no idea what he has done will be perceived as racist.  He has since found out the contest of what he has done, apologized and I imagine he will not do something similar again.  I don't have a problem with that interpretation at all.  He's done exactly what I asked having understood what he has done.  To my mind he is not a racist, who has by accident done something racist.  He has learned, he has altered his behaviour and moved on. 

Regards dressing up as someone else I feel that I am repeating myself time and time again.  You can dress up in the outfit of a Harlem Globetrotter to show you are a fan, just don't put on the black makeup.  I wore a Benteke shirt for a year and not once did I need to put the makeup on to show I was a fan of his.  I even posted a photo of how Ellen dressed up as Nikki Minaj.  It is so easy to dress up as your fav celeb without blacking up so I don't understand why the insistence on the need to do so.  If the outfit you want to wear requires black makeup then yes alter the outfit or choose another person to mimic, it is a small sacrifice to live in a more harmonious world.

Regards equality, it is no where near achieved and whilst there are still serious issues around race then being a little mindful of what you are doing in the world is not hard. 

I disagree with almost every word.  I don't agree that Griezman did anything racist, and you don't know what his motivation is.  Neither do I, but I imagine he's sick of the ridicuous amount of grief and his management company has suggested he apologise.

"Regards dressing up as someone else I feel that I am repeating myself time and time again.  You can dress up in the outfit of a Harlem Globetrotter to show you are a fan, just don't put on the black makeup.  I wore a Benteke shirt for a year and not once did I need to put the makeup on to show I was a fan of his." I don't suppose Griezman, or anybody else does either.  It's Christmas, people go to fancy dress parties, and it was a costume.  As for living in a more harmonious world, well maybe see that nobody was trying to insult or denigrate anybody, and let it pass?

[Rugeley Villa]

28 minutes ago, snowychap said:

Don't throw it back on me. You're the one who has retreated to a notion of the 'white race being persecuted'. If you can't think of any relevant examples then perhaps you ought to put it out of your mind.

You what?

You've got to be kidding, surely?

There is a great deal of difference between individuals being racist and races being persecuted. Anyone of any colour has the potential to be racist; no one is barred from being a racist simply because of the colour of their skin.

What we are essentially talking about here, though, is racial discrimation in the context of western society and not some abstract notion of who is susceptible to prejudice (as @omariqy says above, we all are). Even if there were not still any residue of the historical racial discrimination that existed in western society in even very recent times (and I think it would be very difficult to make that case), it would not be sensible to look at now outwith the context of history. That isn't to say the same thing that you suggested in that we are allowing history to dictate what is right or wrong now but rather that we are using history to help inform us (along with other things) as to what is right or wrong now. Edit: Or at least the way we ought to try to behave now.

Zimbabwe? That's the only one that comes to mind. I weren't saying white people have been heavily persecuted, I was just asking a question. 

[Straggler]

14 minutes ago, Risso said:

I disagree with almost every word.  I don't agree that Griezman did anything racist, and you don't know what his motivation is.  Neither do I, but I imagine he's sick of the ridicuous amount of grief and his management company has suggested he apologise.

"Regards dressing up as someone else I feel that I am repeating myself time and time again.  You can dress up in the outfit of a Harlem Globetrotter to show you are a fan, just don't put on the black makeup.  I wore a Benteke shirt for a year and not once did I need to put the makeup on to show I was a fan of his." I don't suppose Griezman, or anybody else does either.  It's Christmas, people go to fancy dress parties, and it was a costume.  As for living in a more harmonious world, well maybe see that nobody was trying to insult or denigrate anybody, and let it pass?

But he did, be it by accident or not, insult and denigrate people. Its like in the UAE and Thailand it is considered and insult to show the soles of your feet.  There are historical and cultural reason for this that make sense.  Now it would be really easy to go to Thailand and stick your feet up on a table in a way that would be considered a relaxed fashion in the UK that is causing all sorts of offense over there.  The sensible way of dealing with it is to have someone tactfully explain that what you are doing is causing offense and then for you to alter your behaviour to prevent it happening again.  If your response is well I don't mean any offense by putting my feet up so I'll keep them right there, thanks very much then the problem is very much with you.

I suppose my question is, having read the context of what blackface actually means in this thread would you do it yourself?

[tonyh29]

1 hour ago, omariqy said:

Pretty sure none of them have been racially abused. . 

only by Diane Abbott ironically

 

[Risso]

There's that word again, "blackface".  Everybody's using it this week as if it's a phrase they've been using for years, rather than just because it's been repeated ad infinitum on Twitter this week.  Context is absolutely everything.  As I asked before, where were the accusations of "blackface" when Leigh Francis was dressing up as Mel B and Craig David?  

[a m ole]

4 minutes ago, Risso said:

There's that word again, "blackface".  Everybody's using it this week as if it's a phrase they've been using for years, rather than just because it's been repeated ad infinitum on Twitter this week.  Context is absolutely everything.  As I asked before, where were the accusations of "blackface" when Leigh Francis was dressing up as Mel B and Craig David?  

it's not a new word.