omariqy Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 4 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: You think it's absurd to pay someone thousands of pounds per week and to ask them to make subtle changes to their approach? We're not asking him to play rugby league, we're not even asking him to play in a different position. I think it's absurd to think that's absurd. It's not subtle differences though is it. He's a striker who feeds off chances created for him. We don't create that may chances. Kodjia works so well for us because he can create goals out of nothing. Hogan has had probably one or two clear cut chances this season where he shoudlve scored. We haven't created anything else for him and then expected him to do the job Davis does holding up and the job Kodjia does in driving us forward. He's never been that player and to make that change would be pretty dramatic. Maybe if Bruce had actually watched the player properly we wouldn't be in this mess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 1, 2017 Moderator Share Posted November 1, 2017 1 hour ago, bannedfromHandV said: You think it's absurd to pay someone thousands of pounds per week and to ask them to make subtle changes to their approach? We're not asking him to play rugby league, we're not even asking him to play in a different position. I think it's absurd to think that's absurd. It is, indeed. Though I think, personally, that your disagreement with Trent is one where the point is being missed, or at least not really stated in a way that makes sense to me. In support of your comment, Man City have got Aguero playing differently, and there are numerous examples of players changing their games hugely due to the manager wanting them to make changes. Examples from VIlla would include Southgate (midfielder moved to central defence), Allan Evans (forward moved to central defence), Kenny Swain (forward to full back), Gabby (central striker to wide striker) Ashley Young was moved from wide to central attimes and so on. It's quite common, normal and reasonable, not at all absurd to move players, to ask them to play a different role or system or tactics. But... It needs recognition that players being asked to change the way they play, or adapt to different tactics have to have the raw attributes to make a success of it, in most cases. With Hogan, he's a Championship level player. His attributes are specific and his weaknesses also specific. He's not a hold up player, he's not a take on the defence on your own type player.. So when (and before) /if he gets game time two things need to happen. He needs to have been working at improving his hold up play (for example) and also his colleagues need to have been actively coached and worked into understanding what types of play and passing and crossing etc. they need to provide for him to get on the end of. He needs to be looking to learn what runs to make to get on the end of Snodgrass/Hourinhane/ Elhamadi etc. passes. All that seems reasonable to me. It doesn't seem absurd at all. The difficulty is that Hogan seems to have struggled to settle, the coaching seems a bit...absent... in that regard and the tactics followed by the players eem a bit limited in terms of getting the best for the team. So for me it's not about what's absurd or not, it's about a weakness with coaching, with some of the tactics and with Hogan not turning out to be quite as flexible (possibly) as he might be. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 I hope he plays and scores tonight. If only to stop the many excuses that are inexplicably made for this guy. We can't re jig the whole team around a guy who has scored 1 goal in almost a year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, blandy said: It is, indeed. Though I think, personally, that your disagreement with Trent is one where the point is being missed, or at least not really stated in a way that makes sense to me. In support of your comment, Man City have got Aguero playing differently, and there are numerous examples of players changing their games hugely due to the manager wanting them to make changes. Examples from VIlla would include Southgate (midfielder moved to central defence), Allan Evans (forward moved to central defence), Kenny Swain (forward to full back), Gabby (central striker to wide striker) Ashley Young was moved from wide to central attimes and so on. It's quite common, normal and reasonable, not at all absurd to move players, to ask them to play a different role or system or tactics. But... It needs recognition that players being asked to change the way they play, or adapt to different tactics have to have the raw attributes to make a success of it, in most cases. With Hogan, he's a Championship level player. His attributes are specific and his weaknesses also specific. He's not a hold up player, he's not a take on the defence on your own type player.. So when (and before) /if he gets game time two things need to happen. He needs to have been working at improving his hold up play (for example) and also his colleagues need to have been actively coached and worked into understanding what types of play and passing and crossing etc. they need to provide for him to get on the end of. He needs to be looking to learn what runs to make to get on the end of Snodgrass/Hourinhane/ Elhamadi etc. passes. All that seems reasonable to me. It doesn't seem absurd at all. The difficulty is that Hogan seems to have struggled to settle, the coaching seems a bit...absent... in that regard and the tactics followed by the players eem a bit limited in terms of getting the best for the team. So for me it's not about what's absurd or not, it's about a weakness with coaching, with some of the tactics and with Hogan not turning out to be quite as flexible (possibly) as he might be. What % are putting down to coaching though ? Common consensus seems to be Davis offers more in terms of all round play. Adomah is our leading scorer - and Kjodia got 19 goals last season. A significant portion of Hogans woes is his inability to control the ball when he receives it. It just seems to bounce off him. That has to improve if he is going to rack up any goals here. Sure the way we play may mean he doesn't score as many as he did at Brentford - but I can't believe it justifies him not scoring any at all. Especially as he doesn't seem to contribute in other ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Maybe Hogan just isn't as good as it's made out. I hear he has amazing movement and is a natural finisher and yet 1 league goal in nearly a year of being part of the team. For me the blues game last year really showed him up. Even when things aren't going great and the service isn't excellent you can still have a desire to get involved in the game and become a nuisance. With his poor touch, weakness on the ball and lack of desire he was easy to play against. It can't all be down to service, systems and who he partners. There's a responsibility on him to perform better when given a chance. He has to start taking it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted November 1, 2017 Moderator Share Posted November 1, 2017 2 minutes ago, hippo said: What % are putting down to coaching though ? Common consensus seems to be Davis offers more in terms of all round play. Adomah is our leading scorer - and Kjodia got 19 goals last season. A significant portion of Hogans woes is his inability to control the ball when he receives it. It just seems to bounce off him. That has to improve if he is going to rack up any goals here. Sure the way we play may mean he doesn't score as many as he did at Brentford - but I can't believe it justifies him not scoring any at all. Especially as he doesn't seem to contribute in other ways. Take your pick, hippo, on the percentages. "Some" is my answer. Because he scored tons at Brentford. He seemed to be able to control the ball there. I suspect that some of it (and you're right about the ball bouncing off him etc.) is because he's tense and not relaxed at Villa - so confidence, really. That can only come with game time, and goals etc. I'd pick Keinan Davis ahead of him as well, but the pair of them together might click. With Adomah and Snodgrass providing good service (you'd hope) the two of them as a pair could thrive. I've no idea if it's been tried in training (I guess it might have been this week), and admittedly I've got a thing about they way the team seems not well coached in attacking play (it's good defensively, mind). Maybe I'm wrong, but I just think that some of the cause/responsibility lies with the coaching in terms of attacking play and cohesion - it's been something that I've felt and said all the time Bruce has been here. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 5 hours ago, hippo said: What % are putting down to coaching though ? Common consensus seems to be Davis offers more in terms of all round play. Adomah is our leading scorer - and Kjodia got 19 goals last season. A significant portion of Hogans woes is his inability to control the ball when he receives it. It just seems to bounce off him. That has to improve if he is going to rack up any goals here. Sure the way we play may mean he doesn't score as many as he did at Brentford - but I can't believe it justifies him not scoring any at all. Especially as he doesn't seem to contribute in other ways. How many starts has he had? How many minutes this year? When he played early on we lumped the ball up to him and expected him to win battles that's why Davis has looked the better option. For some reason Bruce wouldn't go 2 up until Kodija come back when most would like to have seen a Hogan Davis partnership. Lately he gets on late on games where we are closing out the game. Sunday he played LM!! He needs a run of games hopefully alongside Davis because if not our direct approach won't suit him. We don't create many chances that's not down to Hogan and it's something we have to address. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 5 hours ago, DCJonah said: Maybe Hogan just isn't as good as it's made out. I hear he has amazing movement and is a natural finisher and yet 1 league goal in nearly a year of being part of the team. For me the blues game last year really showed him up. Even when things aren't going great and the service isn't excellent you can still have a desire to get involved in the game and become a nuisance. With his poor touch, weakness on the ball and lack of desire he was easy to play against. It can't all be down to service, systems and who he partners. There's a responsibility on him to perform better when given a chance. He has to start taking it. Sums up Hogan for me, doesn't do the basics at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntrimBlack Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 5 hours ago, blandy said: It is, indeed. Though I think, personally, that your disagreement with Trent is one where the point is being missed, or at least not really stated in a way that makes sense to me. In support of your comment, Man City have got Aguero playing differently, and there are numerous examples of players changing their games hugely due to the manager wanting them to make changes. Examples from VIlla would include Southgate (midfielder moved to central defence), Allan Evans (forward moved to central defence), Kenny Swain (forward to full back), Gabby (central striker to wide striker) Ashley Young was moved from wide to central attimes and so on. It's quite common, normal and reasonable, not at all absurd to move players, to ask them to play a different role or system or tactics. But... It needs recognition that players being asked to change the way they play, or adapt to different tactics have to have the raw attributes to make a success of it, in most cases. With Hogan, he's a Championship level player. His attributes are specific and his weaknesses also specific. He's not a hold up player, he's not a take on the defence on your own type player.. So when (and before) /if he gets game time two things need to happen. He needs to have been working at improving his hold up play (for example) and also his colleagues need to have been actively coached and worked into understanding what types of play and passing and crossing etc. they need to provide for him to get on the end of. He needs to be looking to learn what runs to make to get on the end of Snodgrass/Hourinhane/ Elhamadi etc. passes. All that seems reasonable to me. It doesn't seem absurd at all. The difficulty is that Hogan seems to have struggled to settle, the coaching seems a bit...absent... in that regard and the tactics followed by the players eem a bit limited in terms of getting the best for the team. So for me it's not about what's absurd or not, it's about a weakness with coaching, with some of the tactics and with Hogan not turning out to be quite as flexible (possibly) as he might be. This sums it up rather well, I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted November 1, 2017 Moderator Share Posted November 1, 2017 Really not in favour this lad, is he? Left out tonight for Onomah, who was the worst player on the field at the weekend. Ouch! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 ANother 15 mins at the end of the game today then. He is shit, why didn't he score 93? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted November 1, 2017 Moderator Share Posted November 1, 2017 2 hours ago, NurembergVillan said: Really not in favour this lad, is he? Left out tonight for Onomah, who was the worst player on the field at the weekend. Ouch! Another reason why I don't get paid £1m a year to be a football manager... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Another embarrassing cameo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wazzap24 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Heads gone. Needs a shrink. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reivax_Villa Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 We need another striker in January. Preferably on loan 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 (edited) He has zero confidence. Might help him if we loan him out in Jan. Edited November 1, 2017 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sonic_bouma Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Being hung out to dry every game. Nice bit of play that set up a quick counter attack but some sloppy passes. He will always lose the ball with his back to goal. A player who's confidence is rock bottom. I don't think we will ever play the way he would want us to. Certainly not under Bruce anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVTuco Posted November 1, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted November 1, 2017 Unfortunately he needs to go. And we need someone else in. Best for both at this stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
osmark86 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Don't see him getting anywhere near the 20 goals he aimed for this season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keener window-cleaner Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 I remember in one of the first games he played for us he received the ball in the middle of the field and made an amazing run through the opponents midfield and defence. It looked very promising then. Since then I haven't seen anything like that from him except a half in pre season. He clearly needs games to get in to match form, but I can't really see him getting that with our style of play, Kodija and Davis... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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