Dr_Pangloss Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 2 hours ago, bobzy said: Maybe. At Brentford, he thrived off wide players making attacking movements and sliding through balls. We just don’t play like that. If Davis can hold the ball up and create as well, it could work. I actually think Kodjia and Hogan has the potential to be more potent but Kodjia would need to pass more quickly. Sadly I don't think he is capable of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 4 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said: Sadly I don't think he is capable of that. I think he is, he's just trying really hard (too hard?) to get a couple of goals under his belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 13 minutes ago, Dick said: If only Hogan got that service, instead of lumped balls and 15 minutes to do something. Surely he'd get the same. FWIW - in the last few home games I don't believe we have only pumped long balls forward. The only feasible way for Hogan to score more goals is improve his footballing basics - he needs to learn to beat a man, control and retain the ball. You don't get 'given' a chance - you earn it - like Davis has forced his way ahead of Hogan. I don't think its anyone interests to keep making excuses for Hogan - hes a pro footballer he has to sort it out himself. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 11 hours ago, TrentVilla said: Agreed. We could really do with him finding some form, especially if Kodjia is injured, but sticking him out wide on the left for 10 mins isn’t the way to help him rediscover his form. I think you make a good point.....his form. i see comments about how he is played and references to his height. was Andy Gray, Gerd Muller, Denis Law, Alan shearer......lamp lighters, no. He has to do the business, his height is not the problem. He has to find a way of scoring goals.....too many excuses. ps didn't think much of Jota either, must be a Brentford thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 6 hours ago, hippo said: Surely he'd get the same. FWIW - in the last few home games I don't believe we have only pumped long balls forward. The only feasible way for Hogan to score more goals is improve his footballing basics - he needs to learn to beat a man, control and retain the ball. You don't get 'given' a chance - you earn it - like Davis has forced his way ahead of Hogan. I don't think its anyone interests to keep making excuses for Hogan - hes a pro footballer he has to sort it out himself. Spot on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 30, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 30, 2017 17 minutes ago, TRO said: I think you make a good point.....his form. i see comments about how he is played and references to his height. was Andy Gray, Gerd Muller, Denis Law, Alan shearer......lamp lighters, no. He has to do the business, his height is not the problem. He has to find a way of scoring goals.....too many excuses. ps didn't think much of Jota either, must be a Brentford thing. So your point is you don’t have to be tall to be decent in the air? Yep agreed. I don’t really think it’s relevant though. The players you mention all got great service, ever single one of them. The headers they scored were predominately from crosses from brilliant wide players. Weve decent (for this level anyway) wide players but we don’t really use them very well, I certainly wouldn’t say we whip in decent crosses frequently enough. More often than not we lump the ball up the pitch for our forwards to try and flick on, hold up on run onto. I don’t care what sort of form Hogan is in he is never going to be a player to score goals from that sort of service. Expecting him to do so is setting him up to fail and frankly as baffling as Bruce signing him in the first place. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 25 minutes ago, TRO said: I think you make a good point.....his form. i see comments about how he is played and references to his height. was Andy Gray, Gerd Muller, Denis Law, Alan shearer......lamp lighters, no. He has to do the business, his height is not the problem. He has to find a way of scoring goals.....too many excuses. ps didn't think much of Jota either, must be a Brentford thing. Did they have to deal with long balls forward from the back to their head and chest, not even in the area? How many did they score from those? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 Two possibilities in my view: 1. He scored lots of goals for Brentford so he must be able to score lots for us and if he isn't it must be someone else's fault (most likely Steve Bruce since he gets the blame for everything on Villatalk) 2. His goals at Brentford came from a system that also conceded lots of goals which ultimately got them to mid-table and no better. He has to learn to score in a team based on tight defence or he is useless to us. I'm on 2. And have been for some time. I have no idea why we bought him really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 30, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 30, 2017 39 minutes ago, briny_ear said: Two possibilities in my view: 1. He scored lots of goals for Brentford so he must be able to score lots for us and if he isn't it must be someone else's fault (most likely Steve Bruce since he gets the blame for everything on Villatalk) 2. His goals at Brentford came from a system that also conceded lots of goals which ultimately got them to mid-table and no better. He has to learn to score in a team based on tight defence or he is useless to us. I'm on 2. And have been for some time. I have no idea why we bought him really. Or 3. He scored lots of goals in a side made up of player nowhere near as good as those we have but under a manager who understood how to get the best out of him and how to get players to create chances for him. I think it’s utterly absurd to sign a striker then expect him to change his game to adapt to the way you play. Absurd. You buy a striker to fit your system or because you want to build your team to supply them because of their goal threat. You don’t buy a striker and then expect or hope he will completely change his game. I agree with your closing line, I’ve no idea why Bruce bought him and I really do question just how much Bruce had watched him or quite what his plan for him was within four side. I said after his second game he would fail under Bruce it was obvious right back then. It is absolutely on Bruce if you ask me. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted October 30, 2017 Share Posted October 30, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, TrentVilla said: Or 3. He scored lots of goals in a side made up of player nowhere near as good as those we have but under a manager who understood how to get the best out of him and how to get players to create chances for him. I think it’s utterly absurd to sign a striker then expect him to change his game to adapt to the way you play. Absurd. You buy a striker to fit your system or because you want to build your team to supply them because of their goal threat. You don’t buy a striker and then expect or hope he will completely change his game. I agree with your closing line, I’ve no idea why Bruce bought him and I really do question just how much Bruce had watched him or quite what his plan for him was within four side. I said after his second game he would fail under Bruce it was obvious right back then. It is absolutely on Bruce if you ask me. I think your 3 is the same as my 2. Dean Smith created a system in which Hogan could score lots of goals and I'm sure it was all great fun but Brentford ended up mid-table, so Hogan's goals were ultimately futile. You might question a manager who has a high scoring forward and a team that scored 75 goals (2nd highest in the league) and didn't even make the playoffs. I simply don't agree that we shouldn't expect Hogan to adapt to the circumstances of his new club. I think it is absurd to argue that he can only play in one particular way and any club he joins should immediately adapt to that. In my view he has failed to make the step up to a more challenging task. It happens (think Benteke & Liverpool). At least we agree on the puzzle of why he was signed in the first place. Edited October 30, 2017 by briny_ear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 31, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 31, 2017 8 minutes ago, briny_ear said: I think your 3 is the same as my 2. Dean Smith created a system in which Hogan could score lots of goals and I'm sure it was all great fun but Brentford ended up mid-table, so Hogan's goals were ultimately futile. You might question a manager who has a high scoring forward and a team that scored 75 goals (2nd highest in the league) and didn't even make the playoffs. I simply don't agree that we shouldn't expect Hogan to adapt to the circumstances of his new club. I think it is absurd to argue that he can only play in one particular way and any club he joins should immediately adapt to that. In my view he has failed to make the step up to a more challenging task. It happens (think Benteke & Liverpool). At least we agree on the puzzle of why he was signed in the first place. With respect, I don’t think they are the same or share your assessment of Brentford/Smith’s shortcomings. I don’t think it’s about failing to step up I think it’s about horses for courses. He signed for the wrong manager and for reasons I will never understand the manager signed a player totally ill suited to how he plays. Interesting you should mention Benteke because I think that’s a perfect example. He is a player that excels with a certain type of service, we all knew he wouldn’t get it at Liverpool and knew it was a bad match, same with Hogan and Bruce. In terms of adapt, it’s a word that can be defined differently. Sure it’s fair to expect a player to adapt some, I don’t think it’s fair to expect them to entirely change their game. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hippo Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 8 hours ago, TrentVilla said: With respect, I don’t think they are the same or share your assessment of Brentford/Smith’s shortcomings. I don’t think it’s about failing to step up I think it’s about horses for courses. He signed for the wrong manager and for reasons I will never understand the manager signed a player totally ill suited to how he plays. Interesting you should mention Benteke because I think that’s a perfect example. He is a player that excels with a certain type of service, we all knew he wouldn’t get it at Liverpool and knew it was a bad match, same with Hogan and Bruce. In terms of adapt, it’s a word that can be defined differently. Sure it’s fair to expect a player to adapt some, I don’t think it’s fair to expect them to entirely change their game. Bentekes goal rate slowed down at pool. Hogans have stopped at Villa. I really think his inability to bring the ball under control - retain possession, and beat a defender have some part to play here (and I've seen it happen when he gets the ball to feet ) There was match recently we he received the ball in space and just tamely dribbled it and lost possession - then there was the air shot. I think he has to take some responsibility. Im sorry to say that I can't think as many players as poor with the ball at his feet as hogan - and thats costing him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Czechlad Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Hogan is the same player as Bent. When we signed Bent, we had Young, Downing, and Albrighton constantly creating chances for Bent. Bent scored 9 goals in 16 matches with those three behind him. Then we sold Downing and Young. Our creativity was significantly lessened and the chances created per game went down. Bent scored less goals that season. It's all about how you play. Hogan would fit in well at Wolves, Fulham, or Derby. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
omariqy Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 If he plays then he needs O'Hare behind him or to play off Davis. Anything else is a waste for us and him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted October 31, 2017 Moderator Share Posted October 31, 2017 On 30/10/2017 at 13:58, hippo said: Surely he'd get the same. FWIW - in the last few home games I don't believe we have only pumped long balls forward. The only feasible way for Hogan to score more goals is improve his footballing basics - he needs to learn to beat a man, control and retain the ball. You don't get 'given' a chance - you earn it - like Davis has forced his way ahead of Hogan. I don't think its anyone interests to keep making excuses for Hogan - hes a pro footballer he has to sort it out himself. You mean the last few home games he wasn’t playing in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted October 31, 2017 Share Posted October 31, 2017 Hope he gets his chance tomorrow up top with Davis and I hope he takes it. He needs a goal badly. Quote Scott Hogan scored his only Football League hat-trick against Preston 13 months ago, playing for Brentford. But he has now failed to net in 818 Championship minutes, having not scored, other than three in this season's EFL Cup, since the 2-0 win at Wigan on 18 March. Beeb 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 Perfect time to give him another chance tonight. We need him to start repaying that massive fee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dn1982 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 On 30/10/2017 at 22:27, briny_ear said: Two possibilities in my view: 1. He scored lots of goals for Brentford so he must be able to score lots for us and if he isn't it must be someone else's fault (most likely Steve Bruce since he gets the blame for everything on Villatalk) 2. His goals at Brentford came from a system that also conceded lots of goals which ultimately got them to mid-table and no better. He has to learn to score in a team based on tight defence or he is useless to us. I'm on 2. And have been for some time. I have no idea why we bought him really. We finished mid table last year! Surely Bruce knew what he was buying last January and if he didn't fit his style why do so? So I think you can blame Bruce simply because he's bought a player then doesn't pay to his strengths. He's never even gave him a run alongside Davis to see if they fit. Bruce likes Kodija because he can leave him up in his own and wait for some magic now we will have to be a better team to win games hopefully Hogan gets his chance and takes it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodders0223 Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 If he doesn't get a start tonight alongside Davis then we might aswell loan him out to Melbourne and sack Steve Bruce for spending 14m on a player he can't or won't use. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted November 1, 2017 Share Posted November 1, 2017 On 30/10/2017 at 23:12, TrentVilla said: Or 3. He scored lots of goals in a side made up of player nowhere near as good as those we have but under a manager who understood how to get the best out of him and how to get players to create chances for him. I think it’s utterly absurd to sign a striker then expect him to change his game to adapt to the way you play. Absurd. You buy a striker to fit your system or because you want to build your team to supply them because of their goal threat. You don’t buy a striker and then expect or hope he will completely change his game. I agree with your closing line, I’ve no idea why Bruce bought him and I really do question just how much Bruce had watched him or quite what his plan for him was within four side. I said after his second game he would fail under Bruce it was obvious right back then. It is absolutely on Bruce if you ask me. You think it's absurd to pay someone thousands of pounds per week and to ask them to make subtle changes to their approach? We're not asking him to play rugby league, we're not even asking him to play in a different position. I think it's absurd to think that's absurd. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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