Steve Bruce

[srsmithusa]

3 hours ago, blandy said:

They're (almost, IMO) all good and fair points. The reason, perhaps my view is different on some of them is this:

Missed chances - absolutely right, and I'd add not creating chances into the mix. However, on the missing them, I think there's been a lot of effort (rather than acceptance) put into improving finishing. In some ways the signing of two good finishers and chance makers shows to me that this flaw was recognised and acted upon. You're right that it's not cured yet, but we possibly disagree on whether it's "accepted culturally to miss chances etc." I just don't see that it is, but we all see things in our own ways.

The people "offering excuses" may be posters on message boards, rather than players, staff or manager. Same with the "results don't matter so much"  - there's no way that fans at games or players or manager are acting like they don't matter in my experience.

I wonder if your views may be more based around what this board or other fan sites are saying rather than what is happening on the pitch? I could be wrong and if so apologise in advance. Either way that's not a flaw, it's maybe a reflection of how different people kind of inhale the "culture".

I get where you're coming from now, which I didn't to start with, so thanks for explaining.

 

Blandy, nice to have a conversation.  I don't expect we will either change our basic outlook but someone thoughtful is appreciated.  I would make one further note.  The excuse I referenced of being unlucky, when we were actually wasteful was made after we had recruited those players you mention. Players that had proven they were capable of being much more efficient.  And while your point that we signed them is well taken, my point that calling it unlucky when they were clearly capable of better, still has some validity.

Again, I hope you are right, I hope the culture is changing while not being directly (or publicly) addressed.  In my experience, changing culture has always required that the old culture be named and the new culture be articulated.  I would like it if someone articulated Yoda's quote.  (modified)  "Do, or do not.  There is no try."  That's the culture we need.  Not, "we're doing as good as can be expected under the circumstances." 

The recent results are great.  Long may it continue.

 

[briny_ear]

40 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

, "we're doing as good as can be expected under the circumstances."

No-one but no-one in the current Villa Board/management team is saying that.

[ThunderPower_14]

Game by game, nobody is arguing that we should be satisfied with performances. Shit, toothless losses against bad sides where we play shit football is really frustrating and it should be frustrating to everyone who has a vested interest in the club.

 

HOWEVER, I'm able to separate that post loss frustration from my feelings about where the club is going long term. Losing is NEVER okay, but i'm realistic enough to know that we'll lose some games and that will frustrate me, but under Xia we'll continue to improve as time goes on.

 

Someone else posted last page that Man City finished 10th the first season after their takeover and going hard at the transfer market. They probably lost a lot of frustrating games that year as well. It takes time and effort to go from a place where winning every week isn't expect to one of the top clubs in Europe. Similarly with us, we went into half the games last season expecting to lose by multiple goals, and that negativity and lack of belief filtered right throughout the club. It doesn't disappear in one offseason.

 

I'll be as pissed off about a shit performance as anybody, but I don't think the answer to shit performances at this stage is to throw the baby out with the bathwater and sack the coach and start again.

[Jas10]

I was very upset and out of patience with Bruce but the current run of results and improvement in performances has abated that for now, along with the full realisation that this season has been pretty much a write-off (I guess I just don't care as much now either, it's just all left me so deflated tbh) and that's the most frustrating thing. 

I'm not at all sure of quite how much credit Bruce deserves for this run - maybe some of the injuries and forced team selections have actually helped, in a strange way, and enabled the right players to line up in the right positions, for example, rather than Bruce alone being able to identify and correct such issues. Or maybe he really is beginning to "crack it". However, the return of Jedinak has been a big factor in improving us too (as many had predicted it would), I would worry as soon as he is rested or picks up any niggles or injuries again though. A proper GK and cover for Jedi's position (whether a replacement or back up option) are absolutely essential for next season. For our sakes, it'd be good if he'd retire from internationals as that doesn't help us and he isn't getting any younger.

So, from anticipating and looking forward to a promotion challenge, we've had to instead be more concerned with avoiding a relegation fight. At least that fear has been put to bed now. In reality, that, along with mainly trying to form a new team & getting all the new players settled in, is all this season has ended up being about. 

As long as we continue on this/an upward incline then I accept that Bruce deserves the chance to try and push us on next season. I'm just not personally convinced though and do not have the confidence to say we will definitely be challenging for promotion next season. I don't quite understand how anyone can clearly see or predict that, I don't know where that comes from. Obviously we all wish and hope for it but there are so many factors to consider, including the other teams that will be challenging too. 

My gut instinct is, and has long been, that Bruce is not the man for us, on a long term basis, but, as I originally saw things upon his appointment, he should at least give us a realistic shot at gaining promotion. If successful, then he would also deserve some time to prove himself in the PL (it would be quite cold and ruthless to just cut him loose after that achievement but if things aren't going well I don't think we should hang about either).

I honestly don't know if promotion will indeed happen, nothing as yet has convinced me of that but I've accepted that all we can do is wait and see on that front plus the club has come out and completely backed Bruce so there has to be a certain level of acceptance in that respect too.

For me,  the overall frustration and irritation at the fact that the club has fallen so far and that we've had our expectations and enthusiasm dashed this season has been hard and quite difficult to accept or tolerate. I certainly think that a lot has been sorted out behind the scenes and that the club is being run drastically better though. I have little concern in that sense.

Of course, as fans of the club, we want Villa back in the PL at the earliest opportunity and to be providing us with some enjoyment and enthusiasm via consistently thrilling, exciting and entertaining performances on the pitch. I sincerely hope that happens, the sooner the better...

Edited March 17, 2017 by Jas10

[Stevo985]

It has been the way for ages that if you're not vehemently angry at every single atom of the club then some people will say you're accepting failure or something similar.

The ol' VT black and white thinking again. Everything has to terrible or amazing.

[Hoof hearted]

8 hours ago, ThunderPower_14 said:

Game by game, nobody is arguing that we should be satisfied with performances. Shit, toothless losses against bad sides where we play shit football is really frustrating and it should be frustrating to everyone who has a vested interest in the club.

 

HOWEVER, I'm able to separate that post loss frustration from my feelings about where the club is going long term. Losing is NEVER okay, but i'm realistic enough to know that we'll lose some games and that will frustrate me, but under Xia we'll continue to improve as time goes on.

 

Someone else posted last page that Man City finished 10th the first season after their takeover and going hard at the transfer market. They probably lost a lot of frustrating games that year as well. It takes time and effort to go from a place where winning every week isn't expect to one of the top clubs in Europe. Similarly with us, we went into half the games last season expecting to lose by multiple goals, and that negativity and lack of belief filtered right throughout the club. It doesn't disappear in one offseason.

 

I'll be as pissed off about a shit performance as anybody, but I don't think the answer to shit performances at this stage is to throw the baby out with the bathwater and sack the coach and start again.

I like you, you think good.

[striker]

Having only been a member here for just a short time I'm not so sure there's been a tendency to be black or white on Bruce for instance. Most of the posts I've read have been well constructed on either side of the debate not forgetting the plus and minuses of Bruce's reign so far and to that end most of those posts have been fairly well balanced. Those that have not still have fully explained their viewpoint and I haven't seen too many posts basically stating that Bruce is crap with the out banners all over the forum.

Jas 10 is the latest perfect example of what I'm getting at.

[Grasshopper]

6 hours ago, Jas10 said:

I was very upset and out of patience with Bruce but the current run of results and improvement in performances has abated that for now, along with the full realisation that this season has been pretty much a write-off (I guess I just don't care as much now either, it's just all left me so deflated tbh) and that's the most frustrating thing. 

I'm not at all sure of quite how much credit Bruce deserves for this run - maybe some of the injuries and forced team selections have actually helped, in a strange way, and enabled the right players to line up in the right positions, for example, rather than Bruce alone being able to identify and correct such issues. Or maybe he really is beginning to "crack it". However, the return of Jedinak has been a big factor in improving us too (as many had predicted it would), I would worry as soon as he is rested or picks up any niggles or injuries again though. A proper GK and cover for Jedi's position (whether a replacement or back up option) are absolutely essential for next season. For our sakes, it'd be good if he'd retire from internationals as that doesn't help us and he isn't getting any younger.

So, from anticipating and looking forward to a promotion challenge, we've had to instead be more concerned with avoiding a relegation fight. At least that fear has been put to bed now. In reality, that, along with mainly trying to form a new team & getting all the new players settled in, is all this season has ended up being about. 

As long as we continue on this/an upward incline then I accept that Bruce deserves the chance to try and push us on next season. I'm just not personally convinced though and do not have the confidence to say we will definitely be challenging for promotion next season. I don't quite understand how anyone can clearly see or predict that, I don't know where that comes from. Obviously we all wish and hope for it but there are so many factors to consider, including the other teams that will be challenging too. 

My gut instinct is, and has long been, that Bruce is not the man for us, on a long term basis, but, as I originally saw things upon his appointment, he should at least give us a realistic shot at gaining promotion. If successful, then he would also deserve some time to prove himself in the PL (it would be quite cold and ruthless to just cut him loose after that achievement but if things aren't going well I don't think we should hang about either).

I honestly don't know if promotion will indeed happen, nothing as yet has convinced me of that but I've accepted that all we can do is wait and see on that front plus the club has come out and completely backed Bruce so there has to be a certain level of acceptance in that respect too.

For me,  the overall frustration and irritation at the fact that the club has fallen so far and that we've had our expectations and enthusiasm dashed this season has been hard and quite difficult to accept or tolerate. I certainly think that a lot has been sorted out behind the scenes and that the club is being run drastically better though. I have little concern in that sense.

Of course, as fans of the club, we want Villa back in the PL at the earliest opportunity and to be providing us with some enjoyment and enthusiasm via consistently thrilling, exciting and entertaining performances on the pitch. I sincerely hope that happens, the sooner the better...

I really would like to get on board with the "Bruce will get us promoted next season - the players will gel - he needs time.........."

I dont think the football we play/will be playing under Bruce will get us in the top 2.

He may scrape us into the playoffs, but we would be a brainfart away from not winning.

He'll repeat what he did in October-December, stop the rot and get us going again.

But

We cant go a whole season winning the majority of our games by Kodjia magic, Grealish getting us penalties, and a few headers/scrambles from setpieces.

We'll see

Wyness has spoken

Bruce will get us to climb the table till Brighton at home

So the status quo has been programmed

I hope that our bad run of results under Bruce that I think will inevitably happen is either

1) kept to a minimum

2) at a time when if the board act we can still go up

I just cant see it going well

So its still Bruce Out for me, the earlier the better.

[Eastie]

1 hour ago, striker said:

Having only been a member here for just a short time I'm not so sure there's been a tendency to be black or white on Bruce for instance. Most of the posts I've read have been well constructed on either side of the debate not forgetting the plus and minuses of Bruce's reign so far and to that end most of those posts have been fairly well balanced. Those that have not still have fully explained their viewpoint and I haven't seen too many posts basically stating that Bruce is crap with the out banners all over the forum.

Jas 10 is the latest perfect example of what I'm getting at.

Here here - as a forum veteran I'm saddened I found this place late as it really is a pleasure to be part of and the posters in the main are excellent - I really like this place.

Edited March 17, 2017 by Eastie

[Eastie]

Just watched the press conference - seems hogan is fit and training but too soon for baker and green - lansbury may train today .

bruce has indicated that jedinak will play centre half at Wigan as he was mightily impressed with him there.

intersting to see if we go 433 or 442 .

[TRO]

7 hours ago, Jas10 said:

I was very upset and out of patience with Bruce but the current run of results and improvement in performances has abated that for now, along with the full realisation that this season has been pretty much a write-off (I guess I just don't care as much now either, it's just all left me so deflated tbh) and that's the most frustrating thing. 

I'm not at all sure of quite how much credit Bruce deserves for this run - maybe some of the injuries and forced team selections have actually helped, in a strange way, and enabled the right players to line up in the right positions, for example, rather than Bruce alone being able to identify and correct such issues. Or maybe he really is beginning to "crack it". However, the return of Jedinak has been a big factor in improving us too (as many had predicted it would), I would worry as soon as he is rested or picks up any niggles or injuries again though. A proper GK and cover for Jedi's position (whether a replacement or back up option) are absolutely essential for next season. For our sakes, it'd be good if he'd retire from internationals as that doesn't help us and he isn't getting any younger.

So, from anticipating and looking forward to a promotion challenge, we've had to instead be more concerned with avoiding a relegation fight. At least that fear has been put to bed now. In reality, that, along with mainly trying to form a new team & getting all the new players settled in, is all this season has ended up being about. 

As long as we continue on this/an upward incline then I accept that Bruce deserves the chance to try and push us on next season. I'm just not personally convinced though and do not have the confidence to say we will definitely be challenging for promotion next season. I don't quite understand how anyone can clearly see or predict that, I don't know where that comes from. Obviously we all wish and hope for it but there are so many factors to consider, including the other teams that will be challenging too. 

My gut instinct is, and has long been, that Bruce is not the man for us, on a long term basis, but, as I originally saw things upon his appointment, he should at least give us a realistic shot at gaining promotion. If successful, then he would also deserve some time to prove himself in the PL (it would be quite cold and ruthless to just cut him loose after that achievement but if things aren't going well I don't think we should hang about either).

I honestly don't know if promotion will indeed happen, nothing as yet has convinced me of that but I've accepted that all we can do is wait and see on that front plus the club has come out and completely backed Bruce so there has to be a certain level of acceptance in that respect too.

For me,  the overall frustration and irritation at the fact that the club has fallen so far and that we've had our expectations and enthusiasm dashed this season has been hard and quite difficult to accept or tolerate. I certainly think that a lot has been sorted out behind the scenes and that the club is being run drastically better though. I have little concern in that sense.

Of course, as fans of the club, we want Villa back in the PL at the earliest opportunity and to be providing us with some enjoyment and enthusiasm via consistently thrilling, exciting and entertaining performances on the pitch. I sincerely hope that happens, the sooner the better...

   you explain your position well.

However, I do feel that your support for Bruce is a tad begrudging and that until we are turning teams over every week, that will continue to be the case.

I would respectfully ask you to consider divorcing the current manager from the demise of the past and refrain from associating your frustration with him......judge him on what he has done to trying to turn around a football team that has fallen far from grace faster than an astronaut from space.

The demise and mismanagement of our precious club, is almost unprecedented, very few clubs have been so poorly served for so long and that damage is no small feat to remedy and has required far more than just a football manager......the whole place needs time to gel.

The fans that never wanted Bruce in the first place are not going to be convinced in the early stages of his address.....mainly because the rate of improvement will be at its slowest, that is customary in these types of circumstances

When a job like this is taken on,the rate of improvement varies and inevitably the slowest signs are at the beginning,that rate will accelerate on the back of good work and solid foundations and all the staff pulling in the same direction( which wasn't the case, it was toxic, the place was a war zone )

The fans are a Kaleidascope of personalities all tying their emotions to the claret and blue flag......some will see the "shoots of recovery" before others.....others will be less convinced until they see the evidence staring them in the face.....No one is more right than the other.

I hear some fans say......what do you see now,that I don't.That is a very difficult question to answer, but I will say this......Something's in this game repeat themselves over and over again.i have seen scenario's like this before at our club, not the same, but similar.It takes a much work from many to change.

Only everyone concerned pulling in the same direction, will have the desired affect.

I do not possess the powers to convince others.....but I am convinced in my own mind that we are on the road back.....despite the snail like pace at times, its happening.

It would be lacking in empathy to ask for patience in light of the last 10 years.....but I would respectfully ask fans on here, to not be so hard on themselves and have more faith in what is being attempted.

Enjoy the ride back to respectability, guys......I think it will be fun.

Edited March 17, 2017 by TRO

[Jas10]

42 minutes ago, TRO said:

   you explain your position well.

However, I do feel that your support for Bruce is a tad begrudging and that until we are turning teams over every week, that will continue to be the case.

I would respectfully ask you to consider divorcing the current manager from the demise of the past and refrain from associating your frustration with him......judge him on what he has done to trying to turn around a football team that has fallen far from grace faster than an astronaut from space.

The demise and mismanagement of our precious club, is almost unprecedented, very few clubs have been so poorly served for so long and that damage is no small feat to remedy and has required far more than just a football manager......the whole place needs time to gel.

The fans that never wanted Bruce in the first place are not going to be convinced in the early stages of his address.....mainly because the rate of improvement will be at its slowest, that is customary in these types of circumstances

When a job like this is taken on,the rate of improvement varies and inevitably the slowest signs are at the beginning,that rate will accelerate on the back of good work and solid foundations and all the staff pulling in the same direction( which wasn't the case, it was toxic, the place was a war zone )

The fans are a Kaleidascope of personalities all tying their emotions to the claret and blue flag......some will see the "shoots of recovery" before others.....others will be less convinced until they see the evidence staring them in the face.....No one is more right than the other.

I hear some fans say......what do you see now,that I don't.That is a very difficult question to answer, but I will say this......Something's in this game repeat themselves over and over again.i have seen scenario's like this before at our club, not the same, but similar.It takes a much work from many to change.

Only everyone concerned pulling in the same direction, will have the desired affect.

I do not possess the powers to convince others.....but I am convinced in my own mind that we are on the road back.....despite the snail like pace at times, its happening.

It would be lacking in empathy to ask for patience in light of the last 10 years.....but I would respectfully ask fans on here, to not be so hard on themselves and have more faith in what is being attempted.

Enjoy the ride back to respectability, guys......I think it will be fun.

Where did you get the idea that I am blaming Bruce for the failures of the past? I didn't indicate that at all, maybe you are relating previous posts to mine...

It's simply not the case, I've actually put the past to one side and don't see the need to draw on it at all really. As I stated, I fully appreciate the changes that have been made off the field involving the new boardroom and staff. I feel a lot of good work is being done, and is continuing, in that sense and am confident that we are in much better hands with Dr. Xia and Wyness. I've never said otherwise.

On Bruce, I've only judged him on his time with us and, although I don't want to repeat all of the previous thoughts and sentiments yet again, there are undeniable factors that demonstrate that he has made some bad decisions and often given the impression that the job is too big for him or that he could not find solutions to "on the field" issues. Hopefully that is over now but we had a terrible run of poor results and bad performances too so I don't see how anyone can just let that slide. I'm giving him (some) credit for winning games now and, as I've said before, I don't have anything against him personally but if he's not doing well for us then I, and other fans, have every right to be critical and annoyed.

Ultimately, if he keeps getting results and winning us games and that leads to promotion I will be completely happy. I just don't know if that will definitely happen though and I don't think it's an unreasonable stance. Again, I have yet to see true evidence that we will definitely be pushing for promotion next season. I am in the wait and see boat! I feel that my concerns are justified but I am hoping for the best anyway. I could say, "I hope I am proven wrong" but I am not definitively stating whether that will or will not happen just my current feeling and thoughts on the matter. I absolutely hope we will continue to improve, I realise that takes time and don't think there is anyone who doesn't realise that and needs that explaining to them, and I very much hope we get promoted next season - that is the priority. If that happens, Bruce will get the praise (don't worry about that) but if there aren't encouraging signs early on then I am afraid that swift action will need to be taken - we can't afford to spend another year in this league imo...the Doc has given all the support he can (and I believe that will continue, we're lucky to have him), it's up to the management and players to do the rest...

Edited March 17, 2017 by Jas10

[Jas10]

1 hour ago, Grasshopper said:

I really would like to get on board with the "Bruce will get us promoted next season - the players will gel - he needs time.........."

I dont think the football we play/will be playing under Bruce will get us in the top 2.

He may scrape us into the playoffs, but we would be a brainfart away from not winning.

He'll repeat what he did in October-December, stop the rot and get us going again.

But

We cant go a whole season winning the majority of our games by Kodjia magic, Grealish getting us penalties, and a few headers/scrambles from setpieces.

We'll see

Wyness has spoken

Bruce will get us to climb the table till Brighton at home

So the status quo has been programmed

I hope that our bad run of results under Bruce that I think will inevitably happen is either

1) kept to a minimum

2) at a time when if the board act we can still go up

I just cant see it going well

So its still Bruce Out for me, the earlier the better.

You're fully entitled to your opinion and continuing to want Bruce out. I was calling for his head too during that wretched run, I just don't find that acceptable for our club, but

1) the board have fully backed him and

2) he has bought himself some time now with improved performances and some welcome wins (I hope that continues)

Hopefully he is starting to get it right now, maybe he just needed this amount of time for that to happen or maybe certain things have just fallen into place - there's also no pressure in the sense that we have had to give up on challenging for promotion.

The fact is, he is staying put until the board decide otherwise and, ultimately, if he continues to improve us and we look like a side that can consistently win games in this division and contend for promotion during the whole course of next season, then he will deserve that backing. I can't say whether that will happen, we'll just have to see how the start of next season will go. He will have had loads of time by then to integrate players, ideas, systems etc. and there can be no excuses by then. Hopefully we will make some sensible additions during the summer too and look a more complete side. If not, then yes, Bruce Out again 

[Farlz]

433 is our best formation, not pleased he's trying to force 2 up front yet again. 

[PieFacE]

1 minute ago, Farlz said:

433 is our best formation, not pleased he's trying to force 2 up front yet again. 

I dunno, we won't go down and won't go up now. It's probably a good time to try new things and get the team gelling together with a new formation so they're ready for next season.

There's no reason why our squad can't play 4-4-2, it's just that for it to work everyone needs to know each other's game inside out. Playing a team in the relegation zone when you have nothing to play for is a good time to get that started.

We looked great playing 4-4-2 on Saturday.

[MarkLillis]

20 hours ago, blandy said:

And one intangible one - fans are starting to like the players again. There's a bit of the start of a reconnection between the supporters and the people who kind of represent us on the pitch. That was totally broken, and now it's looking to be starting to be mended. I don't mean support for the team, but respect for the efforts of individual players.

 

I see this and its massively important.....

We  are slowly staring to enjoy the efforts/performances of certain players,soon we will have cult hero's again! (The Scottish Cafu amongst others).Its a slow journey we are on but there are green shoots.... and fans clapping the team off because they played well at Huddersfield  but still lost shows that we are appreciating their efforts and not just blindly getting upset and stating "we should not be losing to Huddersfield"

This club was fcuked and for a long time I felt no connection with our players.

But watching their battle this year, and the improvement over the last couple of weeks is giving me hope.UTV

[Tommo_b]

These posts are getting longer and longer! I think people are trying to steal @Grasshopper's crown for most amount of sentences used in a post!

Edited March 17, 2017 by Tommo_b

[tinker]

Good call from Bruce on Jed, we have had great success using midfielders at the back, God and Southgate come to mind. 

We should have installed a manger like Bruce last winter and built a team from championship players designed to gain promotion while we was in the premier league. I do think Bruce given a bit of time and some luck could get us up next season, not sure we will go up automatically though, that would be taking to much for granted.

Looking at the table now I'm not sure anyone is definitely going up, Newcastle could quite easily drop out of the top two and in the playoffs anything can happen and it usually does. 

[PieFacE]

1 minute ago, tinker said:

Good call from Bruce on Jed, we have had great success using midfielders at the back, God and Southgate come to mind. 

We should have installed a manger like Bruce last winter and built a team from championship players designed to gain promotion while we was in the premier league. I do think Bruce given a bit of time and some luck could get us up next season, not sure we will go up automatically though, that would be taking to much for granted.

Looking at the table now I'm not sure anyone is definitely going up, Newcastle could quite easily drop out of the top two and in the playoffs anything can happen and it usually does. 

Tis and it isn't for me.

Our midfield has looked very exposed without Jedi in it. I know on Saturday they did well when he dropped to CB, but that's the exception not the rule for me.

[tinker]

Well Gardner needs to step up or we need a replacement that can play that role, For me, Jed was never suited to being a defensive midfielder, good in the air and strong but slow and cumbersome while chasing down, tackling and intercepting the ball.