Steve Bruce

[srsmithusa]

The first message of confident assurance I read on here (From TRO a week or so ago) did give me a bit more hope for "Brucie."   Now we're seeing so many of these "relax, leave it to Bruce, trust me, I've seen worse, I'm confident it will all be OK, you just have to be patient," it's beginning to remind me of the cartoon version of Jungle Book with Kaa the snake singing "trust in me."

I'm at the point that the "trust Bruce to get it right" is now striking me as either manipulative or naive.

It is a big, bloody disaster that ASTON VILLA is in the championship.  It is doubly so that we will (almost certainly) be there again another season.  I'm not content with "it's all gonna get better soon."  I am content with 4 wins out of the last 5.  But I'm sick and tired of assurances and optimism.  I want results and I want responsibility.  Now!!!!  Not when some mythical, hoped for key that's sure to be arriving soon, all turns up right.  Right now (the last 5 games) the results have been good.  I'm fine with that.  But I'm not naive enough to think that 5 games equals a permanent trend.  (If that were the case these last 5 would have never happened because the results were utter crap for 2 months before that.)

I'll keep saying it, this acceptance of crap as the best we can expect considering ________________ is the result of long-term neglect by the previous owner and has become ingrained into our culture.  It's poison, it is the Villa curse, and it needs to be eliminated.

 

[Stevo985]

16 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

The first message of confident assurance I read on here (From TRO a week or so ago) did give me a bit more hope for "Brucie."   Now we're seeing so many of these "relax, leave it to Bruce, trust me, I've seen worse, I'm confident it will all be OK, you just have to be patient," it's beginning to remind me of the cartoon version of Jungle Book with Kaa the snake singing "trust in me."

I'm at the point that the "trust Bruce to get it right" is now striking me as either manipulative or naive.

It is a big, bloody disaster that ASTON VILLA is in the championship.  It is doubly so that we will (almost certainly) be there again another season.  I'm not content with "it's all gonna get better soon."  I am content with 4 wins out of the last 5.  But I'm sick and tired of assurances and optimism.  I want results and I want responsibility.  Now!!!!  Not when some mythical, hoped for key that's sure to be arriving soon, all turns up right.  Right now (the last 5 games) the results have been good.  I'm fine with that.  But I'm not naive enough to think that 5 games equals a permanent trend.  (If that were the case these last 5 would have never happened because the results were utter crap for 2 months before that.)

I'll keep saying it, this acceptance of crap as the best we can expect considering ________________ is the result of long-term neglect by the previous owner and has become ingrained into our culture.  It's poison, it is the Villa curse, and it needs to be eliminated.

 

So you want results NOW?

But you're somehow dismissing that we've won 5 of the last 6?

I'm confused

[lexicon]

41 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

I'll keep saying it, this acceptance of crap as the best we can expect considering ________________ is the result of long-term neglect by the previous owner and has become ingrained into our culture.  It's poison, it is the Villa curse, and it needs to be eliminated.

It's either accepting our situation and realistic about it or being entitled, arrogant and permanently dissatisfied.

No idea why you'd want to go with the latter tbf. 

 

[blandy]

36 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

 I want results and I want responsibility.  Now!!!!  Not when some mythical, hoped for key that's sure to be arriving soon, all turns up right. ...

I'll keep saying it, this acceptance of crap as the best we can expect considering ________________ is the result of long-term neglect by the previous owner and has become ingrained into our culture.  It's poison, it is the Villa curse, and it needs to be eliminated.

Well, that's one way of looking at things....

The other is that this "I want it now" attitude is counter-productive, short sighted and destructive.

There is no short term fix or recipe for rebuilding any team or any club. It just doesn't work like that and never has. All human beings and teams need time and support to thrive. It's like planting seeds and then digging them up and throwing them away when tjhey haven't produced apples after 4 weeks. 

This post isn't an argument against your opinion or rights to hold a view on the manager. It's a post about how short termism is a bad thing, about how short term judgements are so often wrong compared to longer term ones.

You're right the club is deservedly in the league it's in because of long term neglect and poor management over a number of years. It is not credible to repair the level of damage that was done over those years in the space of a few months. But the problems are being addressed and eliminated. We're nowhere near recovered yet, but there are shoots of recovery visible.

 

[Eastie]

54 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

So you want results NOW?

But you're somehow dismissing that we've won 5 of the last 6?

I'm confused

4 out the last 6 but hopefully 5 out of 6 by Saturday night

[Godders]

1 hour ago, srsmithusa said:

But I'm sick and tired of assurances and optimism.  I want results and I want responsibility.  Now!!!!  

Man City were a solidly mid-table prem team when they were taken over. Their new owners spent silly money that summer. 

They finished 10th in their first season under new ownership. Mid-table. Zero improvement on previous seasons despite the money spent.

Do you really mean to say that that 10th place finish has hurt them as a club? Because in spite of that first season with no apparent improvement in the league, I'd say they've kicked on to become one of the best clubs on the continent. 

Perhaps it goes to show that instant success, or lack thereof, does not necessarily indicate a bleak future of mediocrity or worse.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, Eastie said:

4 out the last 6 but hopefully 5 out of 6 by Saturday night

I was getting ahead of myself

[srsmithusa]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

Well, that's one way of looking at things....

The other is that this "I want it now" attitude is counter-productive, short sighted and destructive.

There is no short term fix or recipe for rebuilding any team or any club. It just doesn't work like that and never has. All human beings and teams need time and support to thrive. It's like planting seeds and then digging them up and throwing them away when tjhey haven't produced apples after 4 weeks. 

This post isn't an argument against your opinion or rights to hold a view on the manager. It's a post about how short termism is a bad thing, about how short term judgements are so often wrong compared to longer term ones.

You're right the club is deservedly in the league it's in because of long term neglect and poor management over a number of years. It is not credible to repair the level of damage that was done over those years in the space of a few months. But the problems are being addressed and eliminated. We're nowhere near recovered yet, but there are shoots of recovery visible.

 

I can agree to a point. (Veruka Salt was spoiled, that's not the same as holding high standards.)  

However, I see my "short-term" judgement is actually pretty long-term if you look at what I am reacting against.  I'm not reacting against Bruce.  I'm reacting against a culture that says "crap is good enough considering ________________."  That culture, IMO IS the biggest long-term problem.  Removing it overnight is unrealistic, but accepting excuses is extremely dangerous because they perpetuate the culture that has made our situation so dire.   

A goal with a too short horizon would be bad.  Expecting champions league tomorrow would be ridiculous.  (I have often been wrong, but I'm really not prone to being ridiculous.)

I'm not advocating for a change in personnel. (Not at this point.)  I'm advocating for a change in culture.  Poor performances are not acceptable in the short-term, mid-term, long-term, from anybody.   Aston Villa should never accept being good enough considering __________________

I think changing a culture is a very difficult thing to do.  Because of that, I prefer to be pretty ruthless about getting rid of it.  Excuses perpetuate our particular disease. 

I'm actually even OK with "shoots of recovery."  But not OK with excuses when those shoots are not clearly visible.

 

[blandy]

10 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

I see my "short-term" judgement is actually pretty long-term if you look at what I am reacting against.  I'm not reacting against Bruce.  I'm reacting against a culture that says "crap is good enough considering....

.... I'm advocating for a change in culture.  Poor performances are not acceptable in the short-term, mid-term, long-term, from anybody...I think changing a culture is a very difficult thing to do.  Because of that, I prefer to be pretty ruthless about getting rid of it... 

I'm ...not OK with excuses when those shoots are not clearly visible.

The difficulty I have with what you're saying is that I can't see whatever it is that you see.

I can't see any signs (anymore) of a "culture that says "crap is good enough.."

And because I can't see that I can't see where or what the culture change you're asking for should be - how should it be implemented.

It seems like you don't see shoots of "recovery" the main ones I see are that the playing staff is more professional in attitude - they're all working now, and the ones that don't conform have been shipped out as far as possible. The scouting and so on has been restructured, the people that made the mess have largely been removed, the new owner is interested and engaged...etc.

And one intangible one - fans are starting to like the players again. There's a bit of the start of a reconnection between the supporters and the people who kind of represent us on the pitch. That was totally broken, and now it's looking to be starting to be mended. I don't mean support for the team, but respect for the efforts of individual players.

So those are my shoots of recovery. Those are why even though I have concerns over a few things, I don't think changing the manager would be wise, now.

[srsmithusa]

Blandy, those are all "shoots of recovery."   I see them since the results turned positive.  I'm just not convinced that a positive run means the culture has changed.  

Heres what I see that you may not be noticing, or at least not as concerned about.

When we had a ton of wasted chances, the word of the day was "unlucky" here and on the official site.   It's not unlucky.  It's crap.  (of course all players mis-hit shots sometimes, but we were well beyond wasteful.)

many have been offering excuses for bad results before matches even begin because of our injuries, but none of our injuries had been single-handedly turning games around.

many have said that results right now don't matter.  "Just enjoy the rest of our season before the summer rebuild."  (the complacency in there worries me)  I would rather say, "we may not make it into the play-offs but lets at least gonna scare the hell out of a few of those who nick it."

When results are so good, and we're still offering and accepting excuses, that worries me.  It appears that the culture is the same, it's just masked by a really good run of results.  

Again, I'm not advocating a change in manager.  I'm arguing for a change in culture.  Culture is insidious.  It may be changing.  But I fear it is simply masked by a wave of results and the good feelings that engenders.

 

[TRO]

4 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

The first message of confident assurance I read on here (From TRO a week or so ago) did give me a bit more hope for "Brucie."   Now we're seeing so many of these "relax, leave it to Bruce, trust me, I've seen worse, I'm confident it will all be OK, you just have to be patient," it's beginning to remind me of the cartoon version of Jungle Book with Kaa the snake singing "trust in me."

I'm at the point that the "trust Bruce to get it right" is now striking me as either manipulative or naive.

It is a big, bloody disaster that ASTON VILLA is in the championship.  It is doubly so that we will (almost certainly) be there again another season.  I'm not content with "it's all gonna get better soon."  I am content with 4 wins out of the last 5.  But I'm sick and tired of assurances and optimism.  I want results and I want responsibility.  Now!!!!  Not when some mythical, hoped for key that's sure to be arriving soon, all turns up right.  Right now (the last 5 games) the results have been good.  I'm fine with that.  But I'm not naive enough to think that 5 games equals a permanent trend.  (If that were the case these last 5 would have never happened because the results were utter crap for 2 months before that.)

I'll keep saying it, this acceptance of crap as the best we can expect considering ________________ is the result of long-term neglect by the previous owner and has become ingrained into our culture.  It's poison, it is the Villa curse, and it needs to be eliminated.

 

I don't mean this in a nasty way......but you best comeback when we are fixed.....otherwise, its going to be a miserable time.Personally I love watching us getting gradually better from one month to another....there will be some knock backs for sure.....but the good runs will gradually out do the bad ones and then you know is changing.....apart from watching the games.

Whether its a government , whether its a business or whether its a household that has got in to dire debt.....It takes time.....It is callow to think otherwise.

If,you are somehow not able to grasp that.....You will beat yourself up over this, but no manager was ever going to fix this in the timescale you are seemingly looking for.

I too want wins first, but as other posters have written the football is not entirely right yet, so its not eye candy......the defence is better, but the attacking play is no where near right.....first things first, we have to slowly build on it.

You cannot even attempt to link Steve Bruce with the shenanigans of the last 6 years.....its brutal to even think it.....so give him a chance.

No one is suggesting that 5 wins is a new trend......there is simply still too much work to do, to get in to that......but the work is ongoing and you are talking as if it has finished.

you say "the poison needs to be eliminated"......what on earth do you think he is trying to do. That's the road he is on.

He has just had 4 wins in 5 and 4 clean sheets and he is talking in terms of only just starting......He himself has said we are only just starting.

What this is tantamount to is going up to the site agent when Canary Wharf was being built and asking when can i see something worth looking at, when they were just putting in the footings in .......The response would probably have ended in............OFF

Edited March 16, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

4 hours ago, blandy said:

Well, that's one way of looking at things....

The other is that this "I want it now" attitude is counter-productive, short sighted and destructive.

There is no short term fix or recipe for rebuilding any team or any club. It just doesn't work like that and never has. All human beings and teams need time and support to thrive. It's like planting seeds and then digging them up and throwing them away when tjhey haven't produced apples after 4 weeks. 

This post isn't an argument against your opinion or rights to hold a view on the manager. It's a post about how short termism is a bad thing, about how short term judgements are so often wrong compared to longer term ones.

You're right the club is deservedly in the league it's in because of long term neglect and poor management over a number of years. It is not credible to repair the level of damage that was done over those years in the space of a few months. But the problems are being addressed and eliminated. We're nowhere near recovered yet, but there are shoots of recovery visible.

 

ditto. 

good post Pete.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, srsmithusa said:

I can agree to a point. (Veruka Salt was spoiled, that's not the same as holding high standards.)  

However, I see my "short-term" judgement is actually pretty long-term if you look at what I am reacting against.  I'm not reacting against Bruce.  I'm reacting against a culture that says "crap is good enough considering ________________."  That culture, IMO IS the biggest long-term problem.  Removing it overnight is unrealistic, but accepting excuses is extremely dangerous because they perpetuate the culture that has made our situation so dire.   

A goal with a too short horizon would be bad.  Expecting champions league tomorrow would be ridiculous.  (I have often been wrong, but I'm really not prone to being ridiculous.)

I'm not advocating for a change in personnel. (Not at this point.)  I'm advocating for a change in culture.  Poor performances are not acceptable in the short-term, mid-term, long-term, from anybody.   Aston Villa should never accept being good enough considering __________________

I think changing a culture is a very difficult thing to do.  Because of that, I prefer to be pretty ruthless about getting rid of it.  Excuses perpetuate our particular disease. 

I'm actually even OK with "shoots of recovery."  But not OK with excuses when those shoots are not clearly visible.

 

I don't think that has ever been intimated, not in that context anyway.

You have to be careful......There is nothing so destructive as some one making an effort to put things right and living with a judgment of expectancy that is unreasonable.

It makes you weary.

Edited March 16, 2017 by TRO

[GREAT_BEARD_OF_ZEUS]

4 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

I want results and I want responsibility.  Now!!!!

All the people who are really responsible for our demise are gone though.  Short of pulling Lerner up on some set of footballing war crimes there's not much we can do but (and colour me crazy here) accept it, stay calm and be reasonable in our expectations.

Course should you want to mail a few dog turds the way of messrs Fox and Faulkner, then go right ahead, might take the sting out of your anguish.  Personally I toyed with the idea of sending hate mail to Eric Black , but in the end... I couldn't be arsed.

[srsmithusa]

Only time will tell.  I hope I'm wrong.  But culture is insidious.   

[Vive_La_Villa]

22 hours ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I did a lot of research into this over Christmas. I can't remember the exact numbers now, but circa 25 teams who were outside the promotion places at Christmas went on to finish in the playoff spots. Some further away than we were. 

It wasn't unprecedented, even slightly. However, none of them had a 14 player turnover in January so far as I know. 

Oh well, shit happens. Moving on. 

Fair enough. Maybe it was achievable then. We were in a bad state though at the end of last season. 

[blandy]

1 hour ago, srsmithusa said:

Blandy, those are all "shoots of recovery."   I see them since the results turned positive.  I'm just not convinced that a positive run means the culture has changed.  

Heres what I see that you may not be noticing, or at least not as concerned about.

When we had a ton of wasted chances, the word of the day was "unlucky" here and on the official site.   It's not unlucky.  It's crap.  (of course all players mis-hit shots sometimes, but we were well beyond wasteful.)

many have been offering excuses for bad results before matches even begin because of our injuries, but none of our injuries had been single-handedly turning games around.

many have said that results right now don't matter.  "Just enjoy the rest of our season before the summer rebuild."  (the complacency in there worries me)  I would rather say, "we may not make it into the play-offs but lets at least gonna scare the hell out of a few of those who nick it."

When results are so good, and we're still offering and accepting excuses, that worries me.  It appears that the culture is the same, it's just masked by a really good run of results.  

Again, I'm not advocating a change in manager.  I'm arguing for a change in culture.  Culture is insidious.  It may be changing.  But I fear it is simply masked by a wave of results and the good feelings that engenders.

They're (almost, IMO) all good and fair points. The reason, perhaps my view is different on some of them is this:

Missed chances - absolutely right, and I'd add not creating chances into the mix. However, on the missing them, I think there's been a lot of effort (rather than acceptance) put into improving finishing. In some ways the signing of two good finishers and chance makers shows to me that this flaw was recognised and acted upon. You're right that it's not cured yet, but we possibly disagree on whether it's "accepted culturally to miss chances etc." I just don't see that it is, but we all see things in our own ways.

The people "offering excuses" may be posters on message boards, rather than players, staff or manager. Same with the "results don't matter so much"  - there's no way that fans at games or players or manager are acting like they don't matter in my experience.

I wonder if your views may be more based around what this board or other fan sites are saying rather than what is happening on the pitch? I could be wrong and if so apologise in advance. Either way that's not a flaw, it's maybe a reflection of how different people kind of inhale the "culture".

I get where you're coming from now, which I didn't to start with, so thanks for explaining.

 

[sheepyvillian]

Some of these posts , honestly , how do people take themselves so seriously. 

[kurtsimonw]

3 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

 

many have been offering excuses for bad results before matches even begin because of our injuries, but none of our injuries had been single-handedly turning games around.

This doesn't make any sense to me. We've had near double figure injuries. Sure, none of them as an individual might single handedly win games, there aren't many players in this league who do that anyway, but surely you realise that missing 7 individuals would cause problems? 

Even beyond that, missing just one player can be an issue. Football is often about consistency, partnerships and understanding. Remove one player and that's a couple of partnerships that will be affected in the team. 

I think, considering the injuries, he's done a great job of late. 

[Lerner's Driver]

7 hours ago, srsmithusa said:

The first message of confident assurance I read on here (From TRO a week or so ago) did give me a bit more hope for "Brucie."   Now we're seeing so many of these "relax, leave it to Bruce, trust me, I've seen worse, I'm confident it will all be OK, you just have to be patient," it's beginning to remind me of the cartoon version of Jungle Book with Kaa the snake singing "trust in me."

I'm at the point that the "trust Bruce to get it right" is now striking me as either manipulative or naive.

It is a big, bloody disaster that ASTON VILLA is in the championship.  It is doubly so that we will (almost certainly) be there again another season.  I'm not content with "it's all gonna get better soon."  I am content with 4 wins out of the last 5.  But I'm sick and tired of assurances and optimism.  I want results and I want responsibility.  Now!!!!  Not when some mythical, hoped for key that's sure to be arriving soon, all turns up right.  Right now (the last 5 games) the results have been good.  I'm fine with that.  But I'm not naive enough to think that 5 games equals a permanent trend.  (If that were the case these last 5 would have never happened because the results were utter crap for 2 months before that.)

I'll keep saying it, this acceptance of crap as the best we can expect considering ________________ is the result of long-term neglect by the previous owner and has become ingrained into our culture.  It's poison, it is the Villa curse, and it needs to be eliminated.

 

The Bruce baiting thing on here has got a weird habit of vomiting up its bile randomly out of the blue, irrespective of current results and its always the same kind of irrational ranting, 'I demand this now because we are Aston Villa'. Makes you wonder if some people are just spouting the same tripe under different usernames.