Steve Bruce

[dont_do_it_doug.]

9 minutes ago, vreitti said:

I agree. Maybe I was a tad unclear. I suppose what I was trying to imply was that I think he was extremely lucky at the beginning. We played like shit for ages, but still got the results. Then the inevitable downfall came.

That's revisionist. We may have not been playing sparkling football, but we were playing different football to that seen under RDM. We were pressing from the front, there was far more organisation and desire. Still zero movement, which we are finally starting to see, but you can't change those things overnight bud. 

Which of the results were 'extremely lucky'?

Edited March 13, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[vreitti]

4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

That's revisionist. We may have not been playing sparkling football, but we were playing different football to that seen under RDM. We were pressing from the front, there was far more organisation and desire. Still zero movement, which we are finally starting to see, but you can't change those things overnight bud. 

Which of the results were 'extremely lucky'?

(Almost) all of them?

We barely scraped a draw against Wolves.

Got lucky with a last minute penalty against Reading.

Late Kodjia magic against Fulham.

Against Birmingham we never looked like winning, and you could see the equaliser looming.

Once again a few moments of brilliance from Kodjia to barely overcome a poor Blackburn at home.

Okay we played some good stuff again Brighton away, but they were at us pretty hard second half.

I don't remember Cardiff at home, but we won 3-1 so we probably played some decent stuff.

Wigan at home, Greaslish screamer in the end.

I suppose I don't really need to continue? I'm not saying we were utterly abysmal in all of these games, just that the performances haven't been all that great, even though we've won, and I honestly do think we've been quite lucky with some of these results.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

22 minutes ago, vreitti said:

(Almost) all of them?

We barely scraped a draw against Wolves.

Got lucky with a last minute penalty against Reading.

Late Kodjia magic against Fulham.

Against Birmingham we never looked like winning, and you could see the equaliser looming.

Once again a few moments of brilliance from Kodjia to barely overcome a poor Blackburn at home.

Okay we played some good stuff again Brighton away, but they were at us pretty hard second half.

I don't remember Cardiff at home, but we won 3-1 so we probably played some decent stuff.

Wigan at home, Greaslish screamer in the end.

I suppose I don't really need to continue? I'm not saying we were utterly abysmal in all of these games, just that the performances haven't been all that great, even though we've won, and I honestly do think we've been quite lucky with some of these results.

 

That's a bit of a step down from playing like shit and being extremely lucky, that was all. 

Besides, I don't count creating chances and scoring more goals than the opposition as being 'lucky'. I don't recall many super keeper performances in those games. We defended very well in all of them, kept it tight and organised and created a platform for our little bit of extra individual ability shine through. I think the manager, which is who this thread is aimed at, did a sterling job steadying the ship. 

Then it all went tits up, obviously. No denying that. But I do think you have to be some kind of masochist to not see the positives from that period.

It wasn't pretty but it was effective. We are playing better football now as a unit. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[bobzy]

We were definitely lucky in some of those results.  I mean, you could argue that it was the ineptitude of the other teams that meant we didn't lose games - Wolves, Blues, Burton in particular - but we definitely didn't play well (defending very well isn't a sign of playing well).

Even then, "creating chances and scoring more goals than the opposition isn't being lucky" doesn't tell the story.  Against Fulham, we struggled to break them down (I guess they defended well?) but their keeper messed up a pass which allowed Adomah in and Kodjia to score.  Against Wolves, they should've had a penalty from memory, (can't remember what happened) - now they may not have scored it, but we got away with it.  In the other games we won during that period, the other side was "the better team" and on-top for long periods - certainly Blackburn and Burton, I seem to remember Cardiff dicking on us until a sending off.  Naturally, they didn't score/win but we were "lucky" to pick up victories in all those games.

I haven't been convinced by any performances we've put in for a while (haven't seen the last 2 games), even though results have improved.  If we're serious about challenging for the title next season we need to be much, much better - and I think we will be FWIW.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

2 minutes ago, bobzy said:

(defending very well isn't a sign of playing well).

Why?

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, vreitti said:

Well, what's your interpretation of what went down then? Frankly I thought that Brentford loss was one of the worst shit shows I've ever seen. We were already on a terrible run as it was, we'd just snatched their best player, and they annihilated us. Afterwards Bruce told us Bjarnason hadn't played for 5 weeks. Surely a manager with Bruce's pedigree would have had to KNOW it would only end up a disaster?

I think the club made a decision to make wholesale changes in January and take the consequence of a drop in results this season instead of making those changes in the summer and risking the same drop off in results next season, which could jeopardise our whole campaign right off the bat.

I haven't been happy with the performances in January and I imagine they were worse than anyone at the club imagined. but if Bruce continues to turn this around then it could be a masterstroke.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

By the way, I wasn't insinuating that we were pushing any boundaries. Only that it was effective and deserved.

'Playing well' isn't a phrase I used.

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Why?

Because playing well would mean being on top of a game and not needing to rely on defending brilliantly to get a result.  There are times where being great defensively is needed but, on the whole, it's not a sign of playing well in a game.

[bobzy]

Just now, dont_do_it_doug. said:

By the way, I wasn't insinuating that we were pushing any boundaries. Only that it was effective and deserved.

'Playing well' isn't a phrase I used.

Yes, sure - I just think to say we weren't lucky because "we scored more than them and defended well" isn't correct.

In many of those games, we certainly rode our luck.  If you're of the opinion that we didn't then we can never be unlucky in defeat either (which is fair enough but, again, I think you'd be wrong...!).

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just now, bobzy said:

Because playing well would mean being on top of a game and not needing to rely on defending brilliantly to get a result.  There are times where being great defensively is needed but, on the whole, it's not a sign of playing well in a game.

Does that not depend on your system? Mourinho has won titles both domestic and European by building on an organised defence. 

I'm not comparing the two, he is just the most obvious example and I appreciate it's not to everyone's taste. But when I say "defending very well" I don't mean "backs to the wall". 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

Yes, sure - I just think to say we weren't lucky because "we scored more than them and defended well" isn't correct.

In many of those games, we certainly rode our luck.  If you're of the opinion that we didn't then we can never be unlucky in defeat either (which is fair enough but, again, I think you'd be wrong...!).

In some of those games we did, but I'm struggling to name them to be quite honest. Wolves and Blues maybe? That's the nature of the beast eh.

I didn't just say "we scored more than them and defended well so we weren't lucky". In fact, I didn't say that at all. I was responding to a post which suggested we were shit and extremely lucky. 

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Does that not depend on your system? Mourinho has won titles both domestic and European by building on an organised defence. 

I'm not comparing the two, he is just the most obvious example and I appreciate it's not to everyone's taste. But when I say "defending very well" I don't mean "backs to the wall". 

Sure and yes, Mourinho does sort the defence first.  But then, I can't remember his sides conceding more of the game, the majority of chances and having favourable decisions go their way against lowly teams in order to scrape wins/draws.

The good defence in that example is not allowing the opposition to have a sniff - something which hasn't been the case with us.

 

(I appreciate that the opposite will be true in some situations!).

[vreitti]

36 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

That's a bit of a step down from playing like shit and being extremely lucky, that was all. 

Besides, I don't count creating chances and scoring more goals than the opposition as being 'lucky'. I don't recall many super keeper performances in those games. We defended very well in all of them, kept it tight and organised and created a platform for our little bit of extra individual ability shine through. I think the manager, which is who this thread is aimed at, did a sterling job steadying the ship. 

Then it all went tits up, obviously. No denying that. But I do think you have to be some kind of masochist to not see the positives from that period.

It wasn't pretty but it was effective. We are playing better football now as a unit. 

Agreed, my choice of words were slightly strong. The only positives for me from that period was the results, which were good. If that makes me masochist, so be it.

Have to agree again, we seem to be playing better now, and it really pains me that I haven't been able to see our most recent games.

Edited March 13, 2017 by vreitti

[Grasshopper]

I think the real bone of contention about Bruce's playing style is if one thinks

1) is it what I want to see from my football team?

2) Will it get my team where I want it to go.

I know we all have our loyalties whatever the outcome and I personally feel honoured that I support Aston Villa. But equally I dont feel that as a fan I shouldnt have any expectations whatsoever.

Lerner certainly didnt give a f*** what we thought, maybe we werent fickle enough about somehow forcing him out earlier.

Now that DrT is in control, I hope he cares about the club enough to please the fans along the way

[dont_do_it_doug.]

49 minutes ago, bobzy said:

Sure and yes, Mourinho does sort the defence first.  But then, I can't remember his sides conceding more of the game, the majority of chances and having favourable decisions go their way against lowly teams in order to scrape wins/draws.

The good defence in that example is not allowing the opposition to have a sniff - something which hasn't been the case with us.

 

(I appreciate that the opposite will be true in some situations!).

Bruce had been here a matter of 48 hours before his first game in charge, I think it's only reasonable to take that into account. I also think in recent matches we are seeing more of a balanced performance. 

I don't seem to remember those teams we beat having much of a sniff. We allowed them to have the ball, that is true. I wasn't comparing Bruce to Mourinho or Aston Villa to a title winning side. I guess I'm trying to account for the fact that invariably, Steve Bruce's sides do tend to press at the front, work hard, be organised and defensively resolute. They also tend to score a fair few goals. They won't be playing tiki-taka, thank god. 

Fingers crossed the progression continues. I wouldn't mind seeing us win away again on Saturday. 

Edited March 13, 2017 by dont_do_it_doug.

[srsmithusa]

I love tiki taka

[alreadyexists]

16 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

I love tiki taka

I prefer a Bhuna.

[NurembergVillan]

14 minutes ago, alreadyexists said:

I prefer a Bhuna.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, vreitti said:

I respect your opinion, but let's not generalize just yet. Fact is he's only shown tactical nous against Wednesday, and perhaps to a minor degree in some other matches. As a whole though, he's really struggled with formations, and finding the best eleven, imho. I still don't understand how he got the results early on, because there was never a settled team, or any evident structure. On top of that, he did mess up enormously after the transfer window by throwing them all in at once, wouldn't you agree?

This I can agree on. Things take time, and most fans have zero patience. I'm sadly one of those fans. I do think the injuries have helped him out lately as well, but it doesn't change the fact that some progress has been made, and he's done really well.

The football is not great, and I doubt it ever will be under Bruce, but he seems to get results. Still think it's a little bit early to 'be confident' he'll get us promoted next season, but the signs are there.

I think you are always liable to be criticised when you are in transition......by definition, that's what we are, so he will be trying things to see if they work......absolutely nothing wrong with that on the back of what this club has gone through.

As time transpires and he learns and fixes many problems, he will have less trial and error going on and more focus of less things.He has simply had too many things to fix in his early tenure.

I am not trying to say Steve Bruce needs a criticism free ride.....but I think it is more appreciative in fixing our ...what was a sunken ship.....but supporting him as opposed to being  so judgmental on every move he makes.

There is no manager born that makes zero mistakes......by

giving the guy a bit of support can work wonders.

Edited March 13, 2017 by TRO

[TRO]

On 3/13/2017 at 11:06, Grasshopper said:

I feel the deja vu of October all over again. Then I was behind him and hoping we could make the playoffs.

This time I think the results will get better as more teams we play go "on the beach" so we'll end up climbing the table.

I'm not convinced that "all is well" because a run of bad results maybe just around the corner and it could be that those bad results come at the wrong time next season meaning the appropriate action isnt taken and we'll be down here for another season.

I like winning and I'm sooooo glad its happening again but I cant get myself overboard and be of the opinion that Bruce's style will see us 1st/2nd next season. I think he can only grind us so far. I would feel more secure in a style of play that sets the tone for a game in our favour. Dominating, being the boss and always looking like a goal is coming (not hoping for one)

Maybe I'm setting the bar too high, but I've had enough of being on the end of other teams whims. I want us to determine whats going on.

 

I don't think you are setting the bar too high.....I think you are setting it too soon.

This team will be all what you want to be in due course, we are in transition.

you will only see bits and pieces if improvement and it will gradually become more evident like a jig saw puzzle takes shape.

some fans want the picture complete before some of the pieces have been picked up.

GH I feel your passion and it's commendable, but give the guy a chance and more importantly give him time to do the job, he knows what's required and it's not there yet, we all know that.

Edited March 14, 2017 by TRO