The now-enacted will of (some of) the people

[Panto_Villan]

52 minutes ago, Enda said:

I see what you mean, but it depends on the area.

Somethings, where the member states have vetoes, the Commission doesn’t matter. But everything else? Screw Merkel and Macron, it’s QMV and the Commission really matters. And here the Commission answers to the Parliament, not the national leaders.

I think the view you espouse is completely reasonable but perhaps tainted by the media focusing on those crucial late night, down to the minute, Council meetings. But the day to day stuff? More boring and through the Commission. Take Brexit, for example. That was mostly the Commission handling that, not Merkel. Barnier answered to VDL. Michael Gove insisting German automakers would ride in to save the day showed (IMHO) he didn’t understand how the EU really works.

Yeah, I see where you're coming from, and if you're talking about something mundane and day-to-day then you're absolutely right that the national leaders aren't going to be exercising influence over that. But if you're talking something major (i.e. the sort of thing the G7 leaders would talk about when they get together) then I think the national leaders have a lot of influence even outside the areas where they have vetos.

The Barnier / Brexit point you raise is an interesting one. I'm not sure cause and effect is necessarily clear there. The UK government reached out to the national heads of state (particularly Merkel) to try and go around Barnier and got absolutely nowhere. But is that because the Commission had the political muscle to keep Merkel in line, or was it because Merkel and the other national leaders knew the EU and Germany would get a better result for all of them if they didn't allow Britain to start trying divide-and-conquer tactics on them? I'd argue it's the latter. All they had to do was maintain a united front so Barnier could steamroller us.

I guess we can both be right here. I think that Macron and Merkel would get what they want from the EU if both of them wanted something to happen (or not happen), but I also think the powerful national leaders are smart enough to know that most of the time it's best for everyone if they just let the EU bureaucracy do its job without interference. It's very unlikely that there'd ever be open conflict between the Germans and French and the EU bureaucracy amyway; they'd just pick up the phone and hash out a compromise before it got to that stage. So I guess it's a bit meaningless to try to talk about which of the two is more powerful.

[Enda]

Firstly, I have been drinking.

Secondly, all fair points Panto. Disagree on lack of EU role on some points; including agriculture (CAP) and COVID which is sort of a customs union issue. But fair points.

Thirdly, I have been drinking.

[Panto_Villan]

6 hours ago, Enda said:

Firstly, I have been drinking.

Secondly, all fair points Panto. Disagree on lack of EU role on some points; including agriculture (CAP) and COVID which is sort of a customs union issue. But fair points.

Thirdly, I have been drinking.

You're definitely a more coherent drunk than I am!

[Genie]

I guess this is what they wanted and is good news?

 

[sidcow]

3 hours ago, Genie said:

I guess this is what they wanted and is good news?

 

Foreigners coming over here and nicking our jobs..........that no one here wants to do.

[Genie]

3 minutes ago, sidcow said:

Foreigners coming over here and nicking our jobs..........that no one here wants to do.

We’ve got a points based system so that we keep unskilled people out, yet it’s  unskilled people we desperately need.

So unbelievably short sighted.

 

[Sam-AVFC]

8 minutes ago, Genie said:

We’ve got a points based system so that we keep unskilled people out, yet it’s  unskilled people we desperately need.

So unbelievably short sighted.

 

I've never understood why people are so much more supportive of skilled immigration. I understand the importance to fill short term skill gaps for areas that take a while to train, but surely these are the jobs people want to 'reclaim'.

It's like people are more worried about getting what they consider the right type of migrant than the quality of jobs left over for the 'indigenous anglo-saxon' population.

[LondonLax]

In Australia we use a working holiday visa for these farm help jobs. Essentially tourists who want to stay longer than the normal 90 days can stay two years if they spend a portion of the extra time employed on a farm and they earn a bit of spending money for their extended trip.

Presumably the UK could look at offering a similar arrangement if required? 

[LondonLax]

14 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

I've never understood why people are so much more supportive of skilled immigration. I understand the importance to fill short term skill gaps for areas that take a while to train, but surely these are the jobs people want to 'reclaim'.

It's like people are more worried about getting what they consider the right type of migrant than the quality of jobs left over for the 'indigenous anglo-saxon' population.

I think there is a perception that migrants with no skills are more likely to end up as a burden on the state where as migrants with useful skills are more likely to be an economic boon. 

[Sam-AVFC]

19 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

I think there is a perception that migrants with no skills are more likely to end up as a burden on the state where as migrants with useful skills are more likely to be an economic boon. 

I think you're right, that is the perception, but the reality is people can't get a visa to pick fruit only to come here get given benefits and free housing.

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, Genie said:

We’ve got a points based system so that we keep unskilled people out, yet it’s  unskilled people we desperately need.

So unbelievably short sighted.

 

To be fair, the points based system isn't relevant to fruit picking, there's a separate visa for it 

[bickster]

Would anyone like to see a translation of what Macron actually said that enraged Johnson?

Can't top lying

[Xela]

13 hours ago, Genie said:

I guess this is what they wanted and is good news?

 

Genuine question, but who picked fruit before farmers could utilise imported slave labour from Romania and Bulgaria after they joined the EU in 2007? Or the A8 countries in 2004?

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, Xela said:

Genuine question, but who picked fruit before farmers could utilise imported slave labour from Romania and Bulgaria after they joined the EU in 2007? Or the A8 countries in 2004?

Students

[Seat68]

1 minute ago, Xela said:

Genuine question, but who picked fruit before farmers could utilise imported slave labour from Romania and Bulgaria after they joined the EU in 2007? Or the A8 countries in 2004?

I am from Donnington in Telford and near me at the humbers were loads and loads of soft fruit farms. In the mid 80s it was kids and also asian women. Lots of asian women but also groups of local kids used to do it. 

[chrisp65]

I used to do it when I was a kid. Along with the all year round delight of hen egg collecting.

It was basically done for free.

You had free orange squash and a lift on the low loader behind the tractor, which was top thrills in the days before there was the option of a county lines scooter.

I think farmers and shops and shoppers got used to the price of food being based on it not having a genuine labour cost attached.

It not just that I’m now lazy that I would no longer consider cropping for free as a nice day out. I’ve just got a little bit more tory about money.

 

[bickster]

in yet more news that will not shock anyone with half a brain...

Quote

An exodus of EU workers from the UK has left the British construction industry facing an acute shortage of labourers in some specialist trades and a looming crisis for the government’s “build back better” strategy. Industry associations and construction companies said that unless urgent steps were taken, work on some projects might slow this summer.

FT (Paywalled)

[sidcow]

10 hours ago, bickster said:

in yet more news that will not shock anyone with half a brain...

FT (Paywalled)

I read a lot of construction press because I have a lot of construction clients and lack of skilled workers is a theme that's been running for months. 

Also increasing material costs which is for various reasons, some of which is Brexit. 

So basically construction output is going to get more expensive. Yet another hidden cost that will go mainly under the radar like dozens of others in dozens of areas all undermining the "savings" 

[Davkaus]

If this forces companies into a position of training British staff rather than exploring cheap European labour, it might not be such a bad thing.

[villa4europe]

30 minutes ago, sidcow said:

I read a lot of construction press because I have a lot of construction clients and lack of skilled workers is a theme that's been running for months. 

Also increasing material costs which is for various reasons, some of which is Brexit. 

So basically construction output is going to get more expensive. Yet another hidden cost that will go mainly under the radar like dozens of others in dozens of areas all undermining the "savings" 

Lack of skilled workers was a theme before brexit, it's been talked about since I entered the industry 15 years ago

Its a massive **** up that we seemingly put 0 infrastructure in place whilst we prolonged the brexit negotiations, there are several trades that are dominated by Eastern Europeans, Polish plasterers, Hungarian tilers etc and they're good too

One of the biggest or even only positives from brexit was that we should be more self sufficient, instead our government seems to think that the result of brexit is that everything comes from somewhere that isn't europe... We still don't make or do anything ourselves 

Edited June 15, 2021 by villa4europe