The Rémi Garde thread

[bobzy]

3 minutes ago, gilbertoAVFC said:

 

Nice post, but the issue for me isn't a striker and it hasn't been for well over a decade. Ayew would score if he was given chances. We do not create chances.

We haven't bought an above-average creative midfielder since before O'Neill. We had a very good side under O'Neill but we would've made the top four if he had been less concerned about buying average English fringe players that never played and bought a really good CAM. When Ashley Young moved to CAM we scored 15 goals in 3 games.

This has to be the focus. Boro have Downing and thus create. The reason West Ham and Leicester have kicked on so much is due to purchasing/nurturing a really top creative player.

There are always options out there. Last season I wrote to the club telling them to get Keko from Albacete (on a free). Didn't get a response, he signed for Eibar, has been unbelievable and now Atletico want to buy him back. We could do a lot worse than getting Roberto Torres in from Osasuna or Machis in from Huesca (reason I'm suggesting these players is because my job used to be analysing Segunda and they are all cheap as chips because the clubs have no money). These players would be great in the Championship.

The striker is important but think about how many one-on-ones Gabby used to miss. We still used to be good and he still scored goals. Now think how many one-on-ones any of our strikers actually get.

There's a lot in here to discuss!

Firstly, I don't think Ayew has properly been given a chance as a striker - maybe this is partly because he's good with the ball at his feet and looks more creative/destructive playing as a forward/attacking midfielder/whatever rather than out and out up top.  So, to this end, I agree with you - we lack creativity.  However...

...do we really lack that sort of player?  Our squad is just incredibly unbalanced.  To highlight this, I suppose, I'll look at Benteke.  All he was, was a good striker.  We didn't have a brilliantly creative midfielder with him, but he was able to do everything you wanted a striker to do.  Strong in the air, great technique, ability to finish chances.  We sold him and replaced him with bit-part strikers - not in a slight against those players, but they aren't "complete".  Gestede is an absolute beast in the air, but we lack true width to get the best out of him.  Gabby seems to have lost his pace and Kozak is slow so, whilst movement is better with these players, they're unlikely to get on the end of through balls.  Indeed, Gabby's main threat has been dropping in to channels and creating from there (goal keeper blunder for Norwich, Agbonlahor breaking and setting up Gil against Leicester for example).  But no striker in the box when this happened.

I think the attacking element of the midfield (Gil/Veretout/Grealish/Traore etc.) should be offering more chances and probably getting into better positions on the pitch.  We never look like getting enough bodies in the box, and that's a worry for me.  However, given the way we keep possession and pass the ball around, we need a striker who is quick and will play along the defensive line.  We simply don't have this player.  Since we have Gestede, we need proper wingers.  We simply don't have these players.  We're not balanced enough up top to be a particular threat to any team, and that is what is relegating us IMO.

[tonyh29]

I highlighted it yesterday in the thread we broke away and passed outside to the overlap who we hugging the line and had nowhere to go  , we then managed to move the ball over to the other by-line and repeat the exercise before passing it inside and Veretout got blown off the ball 

now even if we were able to get down the by-line and into a  crossing position , we don't have anyone in the box to get on the end of that cross , so why play that way  ? why not come more through the middle , split teams open with tri-angles and give and the old give and go ... under O'neil we broke at hundred mph and either scored or hit row z  .. now we break at 5 mph , stop , turn around pass backwards , then sideways and then give the ball away  ... True MON had better players suited for that game , but here's the thing , get your players to play to their strengths .. Sinclair is actually capable of running with a ball and running at people (sometimes)  , so let him try it , Gil is capable of some nice link up play so let him try it , Gabby is capable of sprinting after a ball so why not try it  , it worked v Norwich even if the Keeper was on another planet  ... but instead Garde has this philosophy of possession and keep the ball ..great when you manage Barcelona  but not when you mange our team of donkeys

Gana was atrocious yesterday he should have put a white shirt on the amount of times he passed to them  .. and yet his actualy break up play was fairly good but what he then found himself doing was either having to hold on to the ball too long as nothing was showing for him or try and play a 30 yard split pass which he isn't capable of ... so a manger watching the game should be looking at this and acting upon it  , it happens week after week ( and to a degree with Sanchez as well but in that instance it's because Sanchez really is that bad)

Bacuna , should have been off at half time , instead he's allowed to gift the 3rd goal and effectively it's game over (though it was at 2-0 tbh)  .. but Ok then the question was , "but who do we bring on " but the lad Lyden at least showed he cared even if he may not have the ability or experience 

yeah it's easy from here ... but the thing is if we can see it , why can't the manager ?

 

Edited February 15, 2016 by tonyh29

[gilbertoAVFC]

I highlighted it yesterday in the thread we broke away and passed outside to the overlap who we hugging the line and had nowhere to go  , we then managed to move the ball over to the other by-line and repeat the exercise before passing it inside and Veretout got blown off the ball 

now even if we were able to get down the by-line and into a  crossing position , we don't have anyone in the box to get on the end of that cross , so why play that way  ? why not come more through the middle , split teams open with tri-angles and give and the old give and go ... under O'neil we broke at hundred mph and either scored or hit row z  .. now we break at 5 mph , stop , turn around pass backwards , then sideways and then give the ball away  ... True MON had better players suited for that game , but here's the thing , get your players to play to their strengths .. Sinclair is actually capable of running with a ball and running at people (sometimes)  , so let him try it , Gil is capable of some nice link up play so let him try it , Gabby is capable of sprinting after a ball so why not try it  , it worked v Norwich even if the Keeper was on another planet  ... but instead Garde has this philosophy of possession and keep the ball ..great when you manage Barcelona  but not when you mange our team of donkeys

Gana was atrocious yesterday he should have put a white shirt on the amount of times he passed to them  .. and yet his actualy break up play was fairly good but what he then found himself doing was either having to hold on to the ball too long as nothing was showing for him or try and play a 30 yard split pass which he isn't capable of ... so a manger watching the game should be looking at this and acting upon it  , it happens week after week ( and to a degree with Sanchez as well but in that instance it's because Sanchez really is that bad)

Bacuna , should have been off at half time , instead he's allowed to gift the 3rd goal and effectively it's game over (though it was at 2-0 tbh)  .. but Ok then the question was , "but who do we bring on " but the lad Lyden at least showed he cared even if he may not have the ability or experience 

yeah it's easy from here ... but the thing is if we can see it , why can't the manager ?

 

Yeah the crossing issue is the main thing. No use having Gustede/Kozak in there on his own when there are 4+ defenders around to pick him up.

The style does kind of work against bad teams because they struggle to break us down and we seize on a mistake or two and get a result. But against better teams who will take the game to us home and away, it is asking for trouble because they will create chances. Garde's first game a classic example of that and though he deserved credit and the team were still adapting, it's clear that you can't line up like that against City and expect to get away with it (we were exceptionally lucky to draw).

[KHV]

48 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 but the thing is if we can see it , why can't the manager ?

 

he isn't actually that good?

[Dr_Pangloss]

54 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

I highlighted it yesterday in the thread we broke away and passed outside to the overlap who we hugging the line and had nowhere to go  , we then managed to move the ball over to the other by-line and repeat the exercise before passing it inside and Veretout got blown off the ball 

now even if we were able to get down the by-line and into a  crossing position , we don't have anyone in the box to get on the end of that cross , so why play that way  ? why not come more through the middle , split teams open with tri-angles and give and the old give and go ... under O'neil we broke at hundred mph and either scored or hit row z  .. now we break at 5 mph , stop , turn around pass backwards , then sideways and then give the ball away  ... True MON had better players suited for that game , but here's the thing , get your players to play to their strengths .. Sinclair is actually capable of running with a ball and running at people (sometimes)  , so let him try it , Gil is capable of some nice link up play so let him try it , Gabby is capable of sprinting after a ball so why not try it  , it worked v Norwich even if the Keeper was on another planet  ... but instead Garde has this philosophy of possession and keep the ball ..great when you manage Barcelona  but not when you mange our team of donkeys

Gana was atrocious yesterday he should have put a white shirt on the amount of times he passed to them  .. and yet his actualy break up play was fairly good but what he then found himself doing was either having to hold on to the ball too long as nothing was showing for him or try and play a 30 yard split pass which he isn't capable of ... so a manger watching the game should be looking at this and acting upon it  , it happens week after week ( and to a degree with Sanchez as well but in that instance it's because Sanchez really is that bad)

Bacuna , should have been off at half time , instead he's allowed to gift the 3rd goal and effectively it's game over (though it was at 2-0 tbh)  .. but Ok then the question was , "but who do we bring on " but the lad Lyden at least showed he cared even if he may not have the ability or experience 

yeah it's easy from here ... but the thing is if we can see it , why can't the manager ?

 

Exactly. This is the fundamental flaw that I see in Garde, he's too conservative and lacks ambition. His football is possession based and safety first and it's far too negative and cautious. We do not commit players in behind and we do not get enough players into box when, for instance, we have the ball out wide. 

We need to break quicker, get more bodies forward and frankly be more direct. I think we need to look at having two up front, with Gestede getting back to fitness, why not have him up top with Gabby. Hit Gestede early and have Gabby making runs off him? Fine, it's hardly the key to success but I guarantee that it will give the opposition much more to think about and apply a lot more pressure onto back lines. We are just far too tepid and easy to play against. 

[praisedmambo]

But with which players do we attack with? I think it's unfair to judge Garde on pretty much anything when he's inherited this piece of shit squad. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

6 minutes ago, praisedmambo said:

But with which players do we attack with? I think it's unfair to judge Garde on pretty much anything when he's inherited this piece of shit squad. 

Of course it's fair to analyse/criticise how he sets us up, at the end of the day it's his tactics and approach. Of course he has inherited shite but that doesn't give him a free pass at all. When I see such a lack of desire as I saw yesterday, I have to at least partially question Garde's ability to motivate players, when I see such a lack of ambition to commit bodies forward and for players to make positive forward runs, then yes, I at least partially question Garde's tactical abilities. 

[tonyh29]

 

 

1 hour ago, tonyh29 said:

but the thing is if we can see it , why can't the manager ?

24 minutes ago, KHV said:

he isn't actually that good?

or maybe he's taking being Arsène Wenger's successor a bit too seriously  

[Jareth]

The problem with Garde is that because he hasn't been able to sign a single player, and inherited a club in a mess at all levels, we have no idea what his flaws are. I agree that his approach could be a bit conservative, but then we can't know for sure until he has put a team together. So I think I would rather wait for this to happen first, before we go looking for someone else to start again with - we need as much of a head start as possible if we want to get promoted.

[Genie]

12 minutes ago, Jareth said:

 we need as much of a head start as possible if we want to get promoted.

Bringing in a player or 2 this window to really bed them in for next season would have helped imo.

Ticket purchasers should be able to sue as clearly not 'prepared' as the club would want us to believe.

[srsmithusa]

question.... if we should be throwing more into the attack.... is that because you would like to concede 7 ?

Clearly, I'm being absurd but I'm trying to make a point.  I get annoyed at how often we slow down the attack.  I would rather we attack with greater speed and sense of urgency, but saying that Garde is not good because he doesn't force it are (IMO) failing to notice just how poor we are at defensively containing the opposition.

I just think we have far too many problems to think that encouraging more urgent attack (or any other one action/strategy) will solve much.

[theboyangel]

Who were we supposed to attack with yesterday?

We only had Gabby (ineffective, unfit, disinterested etc etc) and Sinclair (powderpuff and useless) as available strikers.

We were missing Gestede, Kozak, Ayew, Traore and Grealish and whilst none of them are world beaters, having a couple of them available may have changed the way we approached the game.

The squad is ridiculously thin on the ground at the moment, we have no strikers (esp now Gabby has had a dizzy spell) available and our midfield options are minimal too.

There's nothing any manager could do with the current squad in the current situation, other than send them out there to do their best.

I've watched Garde's comments post match and he genuinely appeared humilated by the result but it was his comment "I am trying to concentrate on my job and try to do the best with the players who want to still fight." that rang massive alarm bells for me.

We have employed a bunch of words removed and hardly any of them give a toss.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just look at his bench yesterday. Scott **** Sinclair.

[Skruff]

We've looked quite solid and had some fight in us the last couple of games. What the Hell happend the past week? I turned the game off after they went 3-0 up. 3 extremely soft goals conceeded. The whole team played like they didn't want to be there from the first goal conceeded. We seem so fragile and mentally weak, even after what's been a somewhat positive run. Sell em and start from scratch. I Don't think any amount of managers or sports pshycologists would solve the problem. French players unsettled, English players on the beach. **** it.

The only thing I have some faith in is Remi Garde. I understand his critics. But I find it hard to believe that any manager would have done much better. I hope he stays and rebuilds. 

 

Edited February 15, 2016 by Skruff

[mykeyb]

2 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Exactly. This is the fundamental flaw that I see in Garde, he's too conservative and lacks ambition. His football is possession based and safety first and it's far too negative and cautious. We do not commit players in behind and we do not get enough players into box when, for instance, we have the ball out wide. 

We need to break quicker, get more bodies forward and frankly be more direct. I think we need to look at having two up front, with Gestede getting back to fitness, why not have him up top with Gabby. Hit Gestede early and have Gabby making runs off him? Fine, it's hardly the key to success but I guarantee that it will give the opposition much more to think about and apply a lot more pressure onto back lines. We are just far too tepid and easy to play against. 

Yet again Dr P I am in complete agreement.

[Nabby]

28 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Just look at his bench yesterday. Scott **** Sinclair.

Sinclair or a 17 year old kid ...

The midfield is powder puff we know this , Sanchez loses ball at times but without him we have no physicality in the middle.If you had options you wouldn't start with Westwood , Vertetout and Gill it would be 2 or even one of them.

The attacking threat is an issue we don't get enough forward why well to start with in the midfield have no pace so when we do get a quick break we have to slow down to allow them to catch up.The fullbacks as an attacking threat are pretty much hopeless , Richards will dribble on his own in our half but get the ball in the opposition half and he plays safe , playing RB I don't think he has put a cross on any note in any match.

Bacuna used to be an attacking threat but his shooting and crossing has gone to shit , I think if we had options he would be out of the team to regain some form but there is no one to play.

The squad is threadbare I doubt any manager could do anything with this lot now

[mwj]

2 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Exactly. This is the fundamental flaw that I see in Garde, he's too conservative and lacks ambition. His football is possession based and safety first and it's far too negative and cautious. We do not commit players in behind and we do not get enough players into box when, for instance, we have the ball out wide. 

Yes he is conservative, but what other option does he have?

a - Play 4-2-4 with all guns blazing and a strikeforce of Grealish - Sinclair - Ayew - Traore (most of which are injured, suspended), ship a bunch of goals and hope we jag 7 wins of 4-3 and 5-4?

b - Play 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1, bore the opposition to death and try to grind out a some wins ala Pulis / Allardyce

The reality is its been option c - play 4-5-1 conservative and STILL ship a bunch of goals but honestly, what is meant to do? He's already dropped Richardson, Hutton, Sanchez, Guzan and Sinclair... you realise we have to actually field 11 players right?

[DCJonah]

There's not much he could have done formation wise yesterday. But he didn't have to start Veretout as a winger and we could have played with more intensity, closing them down quicker. 

I think overall he's been far too negative here, its the major concern I have regarding his future here. 

[tonyh29]

17 minutes ago, mwj said:

Yes he is conservative, but what other option does he have?

a - Play 4-2-4 with all guns blazing and a strikeforce of Grealish - Sinclair - Ayew - Traore (most of which are injured, suspended), ship a bunch of goals and hope we jag 7 wins of 4-3 and 5-4?

b - Play 4-5-1, 4-4-1-1, bore the opposition to death and try to grind out a some wins ala Pulis / Allardyce

The reality is its been option c - play 4-5-1 conservative and STILL ship a bunch of goals but honestly, what is meant to do? He's already dropped Richardson, Hutton, Sanchez, Guzan and Sinclair... you realise we have to actually field 11 players right?

we are going down without 7 wins (possibly even with them) so heck yes he might as well  .. better than going for  0- 0 and losing 6-0  .. we might have forgiven him had we gone 9 up top with rush keeper and shipped 6 as at least it meant we went for it

I keep seeing Fat Sam being slated , but his team came back from 2-0 against world champions Liverpool last week , our team shipped 4 more goals

 

 

[sharkyvilla]

I'm not sure he started Veretout on the left wing, I thought he started in a kind of inside left position in a tight midfield like he started against West Ham and played well before Ayew got himself sent off.  Then when we went a goal down Remi changed it so that we basically went 4-4-2 with Gil off Agbonlahor, with Veretout doing a job out left.  Problem then was that every time the likes of Bacuna and Gana got the ball they either ran into the opposition or passed it straight to them, inviting more pressure, and Gil getting deeper leaving Gabby isolated.