Gun violence in the USA

[Genie]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

I was listening to U.S. politicians this morning calling for teachers to be armed.

Something we literally went over as an option on VT some time ago, as the blackest humour.

 

Probably should give the kids guns too, because at some point a teacher will go all shooty shooty.

[Genie]

1 hour ago, TheAuthority said:

My 3 1/2 year old has had active shooter drills

I've been researching jobs in Europe today quite honestly.

Shit loads of jobs in the UK mate.

[mjmooney]

Let's hypothetically assume that the gun control lobby succeeds. What does 'success' mean? Prevent any future private ownership of assault rifles? Tighten up legislation on gun purchases? But what about the tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands?) of gun owners already out there? There is no way that those people are going to just hand their guns in. And equally, no way that the police are going to take responsibility for trying to confiscate them (and probably dying in the process). Basically, it's gone too far, and the genie can't be put back in the bottle. This is The New Normal. 

[Genie]

1 minute ago, mjmooney said:

Let's hypothetically assume that the gun control lobby succeeds. What does 'success' mean? Prevent any future private ownership of assault rifles? Tighten up legislation on gun purchases? But what about the tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands?) of gun owners already out there? There is no way that those people are going to just hand their guns in. And equally, no way that the police are going to take responsibility for trying to confiscate them (and probably dying in the process). Basically, it's gone too far, and the genie can't be put back in the bottle. This is The New Normal. 

America has 120 guns per 100 people. That’s tens of millions of guns.

[fruitvilla]

2 minutes ago, Genie said:

America has 120 guns per 100 people. That’s hundreds of millions of guns.

FIFY

[mjmooney]

1 minute ago, Genie said:

America has 120 guns per 100 people. That’s tens of millions of guns.

Exactly. What I'm saying is that they need far more than simply legislation about future practice. They need to take those millions of guns away from people. And that is utterly unenforcible. 

[El Zen]

17 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

No doubt

But the older I've got the less Ive wanted to live there, as a kid I'd have loved to have moved to the States, now there's absolutely not a chance I'd do it 

Holidays etc no problem, it's way way down the list of places I'd live, their policies on guns and healthcare are so far behind the rest of the modern world it's embarrassing 

Definitely. I mean, under different circumstances, I’d love to spend a period of my life living in NYC, and there are loads of places around the country I could probably live very happily for a while. But as a father, or even just a middle class guy working a middle class job*, no way would I ever move there to settle down. It’s even becoming increasingly less attractive as a holiday destination, I have to say. I’m not easily scared, but I’d genuinely have the threat of gun violence in the back of my mind if/when I go back again. 

*Actually, given the frequency of school shootings and generally awful wages for teachers, America is very, very low on the list of countries I’d want to do my job in. 

Edited May 25, 2022 by El Zen

[villa4europe]

6 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Let's hypothetically assume that the gun control lobby succeeds. What does 'success' mean? Prevent any future private ownership of assault rifles? Tighten up legislation on gun purchases? But what about the tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands?) of gun owners already out there? There is no way that those people are going to just hand their guns in. And equally, no way that the police are going to take responsibility for trying to confiscate them (and probably dying in the process). Basically, it's gone too far, and the genie can't be put back in the bottle. This is The New Normal. 

I dont think they can do anything, it's ingrained in their culture, not just the violence but the celebration and worshipping of their armed forces, the illegal drugs and gangs that come with it and most importantly the fear that they live in 

There's been posters who live in the states who have said they own a gun because they want to protect their family in the event of someone breaking in and harming their family, the gun is not the crazy thing, living your life in that fear is mind blowing as a European, the society I live in is what keeps my family safe at night, I don't need a gun, no one is breaking in my house tonight to come and get me (knock on wood)

[chrisp65]

It is too late, it’s just in the cultural identity of tens of millions of people.

Have a quick channel hop, there’s American tv and they are all shooting at each other, right now there’s a Bourne film on, there’s a robocop film playing there’s some American series on a Sky channel, 5USA has a true crime shooting, they’re all solving their problems with gunfights.

 

 

[avfc1982am]

If anyone thinks the US will do anything about the millions of guns in circulation or any prohibitive methods of control that'll affect the sale of firearms then keep dreaming. 

Personally I could never live in a country with kids where carrying firearms is legal. There are enough clowns on the streets in the UK as it is. It would be carnage. 

 

[sharkyvilla]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

Exactly. What I'm saying is that they need far more than simply legislation about future practice. They need to take those millions of guns away from people. And that is utterly unenforcible. 

All they could do is tightly control what type of and how much ammunition you can legally buy and hope that within a generation it will have made a difference.  There's no short term fix, as you say.

[il_serpente]

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

Let's hypothetically assume that the gun control lobby succeeds. What does 'success' mean? Prevent any future private ownership of assault rifles? Tighten up legislation on gun purchases? But what about the tens of thousands (maybe hundreds of thousands?) of gun owners already out there? There is no way that those people are going to just hand their guns in. And equally, no way that the police are going to take responsibility for trying to confiscate them (and probably dying in the process). Basically, it's gone too far, and the genie can't be put back in the bottle. This is The New Normal. 

That's part of the argument that some anti gun control people make over here for not doing anything.  There's a connection between this and "If we outlaw guns only outlaws will have guns."  Obviously, there's nothing inaccurate about what you're saying, but I'm not convinced that it's not possible to claw back a little bit of sanity and increase in safety.

1 hour ago, mjmooney said:

Exactly. What I'm saying is that they need far more than simply legislation about future practice. They need to take those millions of guns away from people. And that is utterly unenforcible. 

It's possible to make some things better without making everything better.  For example, most of the mass shootings we've seen have been carried out with assault rifles that were relatively recent acquisitions.   If it had been a lot more difficult to obtain them we wouldn't have put any significant dent in the total number of gun deaths in the US, but we'd be a lot more comfortable that we wouldn't be cut down in public by a rando nut job with a grievance.  One step at a time.   If people saw data that an assault weapons ban hugely decreased the number of random mass shootings and deaths without greatly impacting their life and "liberties", they just might be willing to start listening to sensible handgun control.

You're never going to get the majority of Americans to give up their God-given right to protect their families or hunt, but you might get them to agree to a background check and waiting period and possibly even registration (nah, who am I kidding?).  Eventually, the people who already have guns will either die or shoot each other.   There have been some successful buyback programs at local levels.   It would take a bit of money, but could possibly get a lot of assault weapons off the street in combination with outlawing them.  You can have $500 and give up your gun that you have no need for or risk confiscation and heavy fines if we find out about it later.

I like the idea of steep taxes on ammunition.   The more deadly the weapon that uses it, the higher the tax.  Much lower taxes for ammo bought and used at approved gun ranges so the inbreds can still legally have their fun playing shoot 'em up without going broke.   Similarly, a tax rebate for shell casings from hunting rifles and shotguns that are turned in with evidence of a legal kill.

[KentVillan]

I think machismo is very often a form of fear - fear of being hurt, fear of looking like a pussy, fear of people thinking you’re gay, etc.

So if you have a society where machismo is already celebrated AND people have legitimate fears of violence you get a toxic cycle of fear and machismo.

So much American cultural discourse is about bravery, being in the line of fire, doing anything to protect your family… but of course it’s all bullshit, because 99% of people are not built like that, and are better off just living in safer, friendlier societies where they don’t have to pretend to be a hard man.

All of this stuff is related… the trigger happy warrior culture among US police (because they’re terrified of being shot), the massive tank-like cars, the love of the military… “soccer” being a women’s sport… it’s just one big culture of male insecurity. All these school shooters are wannabe alphas. What about if they lived in a society where you weren’t constantly told that being alpha is something to be celebrated?

I think it’s amazing that some people are singling out the “cowardice” of the police who failed to properly engage the shooter. I mean, come on, these are ordinary PC Plods who should just be armed with tasers at best in any normal society. Of course they shat their pants. But they’ll become a convenient deflection for the NRA. Again it comes down to machismo, people claiming that they’d have been there exchanging fire with a man armed with an assault rifle. Bringing down “the bad guy”.

[maqroll]

The Klan don't like party crashers

 

[desensitized43]

Quote

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

2nd amendment of the United States constitution in full.

It’s very convenient that people remember the second bit but not the first bit. Are you in a militia? Then no, you can’t have a gun.

If you’re in a militia, is it “well regulated”?

[DCJonah]

42 minutes ago, desensitized43 said:

2nd amendment of the United States constitution in full.

It’s very convenient that people remember the second bit but not the first bit. Are you in a militia? Then no, you can’t have a gun.

If you’re in a militia, is it “well regulated”?

Funnily enough, all these guys with guns ready to defend freedom, did **** all when the Cult of Trump literally tried to steal an election.

[AXD]

14 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Funnily enough, all these guys with guns ready to defend freedom, did **** all when the Cult of Trump literally tried to steal an election.

What do you mean ‘**** all’, they were the ones trying to help him steal it

[Genie]

15 minutes ago, DCJonah said:

Funnily enough, all these guys with guns ready to defend freedom, did **** all when the Cult of Trump literally tried to steal an election.

They never do which is surprising. Like in NY last week and Texas this week, there must be plenty of people with guns locally who heard the shots and did nothing.

[Straggler]

There is loads that can be done to combat the problem of mass shootings. It is a big job, it will be difficult, but what is not acceptable is just continuing along the current path. 

The biggest problem is still that any good work done now would simply be destroyed by the next Republican President, but fight that battle when it happens, doing nothing now is unacceptable.

 

 

 

 

 

[StefanAVFC]

13 hours ago, choffer said:

Just watched their press conference live streamed. What a country. A series of people try to outdo themselves to see who can appear the saddest until someone starts heckling them, they all break character and return to their normal selves, shouting at the guy, calling him an S.O.B. before he gets escorted out. Then they immediately resume the sad-off. 
It seemed for all the world like a bunch of a-holes trying to show the world’s media how compassionate they were to make themselves look good. All about them rather than the victims or their families. 

Yes and no. They were probably also angry because the guy was Beto O'Rourke who's running against Greg Abbott in the governor race. But you're right, they're angrier that he's there and interrupting than they are about 19 children being dead.