LondonLax Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 There is a midterm election coming up. The American people could absolutely decide to vote in enough representatives to enact gun reform but enough of them will chose not to do so. The USA has decided as a society that it wants these firearms available and the shootings are a price they are willing to accept. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Let me ask you then. Whoever was in power at present, Trump, Obama, whoever. If they enacted gun reform would they win the next election? If the answer is no, then the public are right front and centre of this issue, not just the NRA. Pro gun / Normal people gun owners who have them becasue the other guy has one / NRA types : By definition of what they are, these people should not be allowed to vote. Their views and actions allow for the school shootings to happen and thus, their views are of no value. (Personally, anyone who is "Into" guns is as dangerous as someone who is "Into" religious terrorism as they have a basic logic and brain development problem) 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AXD Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) 17 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Let me ask you then. Whoever was in power at present, Trump, Obama, whoever. If they enacted gun reform would they win the next election? If the answer is no, then the public are right front and centre of this issue, not just the NRA. I wouldn't say that would be a factor to win or lose a next election, just because an election has never been about gun control (I/we just don't know). Attention is always diverted or pulled towards immigration, the economy, infrastructure,... After Parkland, it seemed the momentum was there to keep gun safety on the agenda, but it fizzled out. I'm not sure, but I think I have seen gun safety always being in the top 10 concerns, but never top 3-5. Edit: found a graph to support my last sentence. Gun control is not a priority issue according to this. https://www.pewresearch.org/politics/2022/02/16/publics-top-priority-for-2022-strengthening-the-nations-economy/ Edited May 25, 2022 by AXD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted May 25, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: Pro gun / Normal people gun owners who have them becasue the other guy has one / NRA types : By definition of what they are, these people should not be allowed to vote. Their views and actions allow for the school shootings to happen and thus, their views are of no value. (Personally, anyone who is "Into" guns is as dangerous as someone who is "Into" religious terrorism as they have a basic logic and brain development problem) Not sure I'm 100% on board with that if I'm honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted May 25, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted May 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, Amsterdam_Neil_D said: By definition of what they are, these people should not be allowed to vote. Their views and actions allow for the school shootings to happen and thus, their views are of no value. (Personally, anyone who is "Into" guns is as dangerous as someone who is "Into" religious terrorism as they have a basic logic and brain development problem) Well, I agree with you. Unfortunately, those people are probably equally convinced that people who support antifascist/BLM/gay/trans/abortion rights issues have a basic logic and brain development problem, and should not be allowed to vote. That's the problem with democracy. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 It's just selfishness. People who want to have guns want them so badly that they don't care if a bad guy with a gun shoots up a school because they are the good guy with a gun. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 11 minutes ago, HKP90 said: Let me ask you then. Whoever was in power at present, Trump, Obama, whoever. If they enacted gun reform would they win the next election? If the answer is no, then the public are right front and centre of this issue, not just the NRA. That is an opinion not backed up by any fact at all. The polls state that 52% of the US public are in support of tighter gun legislation. 34% are for keeping the status quo and this is before the events of the last day. It should be a vote winner. The only reason this is in contention is because of the very vocal and willing to chuck money around pro gun lobby minority. The problem in 100% not that people would vote against a party proposing stricter gun laws. The problem is the pro gun lobby would spend huge amounts of money to campaign against such legislation and because the influence of money is so disproportionately more powerful than the will of the majority. Again the problem is not the will of the people, it is the disproportionate power of a minority with a large amount of money subverting the will of the people. Within both parties it is easier to take the NRA money and shut their eyes to the problem than it is to fight them. This is because to fight them, they would have to point out the unhealthy and fundamentally undemocratic influence of campaign donations and they all like the money more than they care about kids getting shot. gun data in USA Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) the crazy thing being that to my understanding the tighter legislation just means background checks and licenses etc if you still want a gun you can have one, you just cant walk in to an exhibition and buy whatever you want with not a bean of paperwork on you the tighter legislation would still blow most civilised societies minds and these **** wont even sign off on that no normal human being needs an AR15 for civilian purposes, there is no justification for it, literally zero and this kid in the latest one had 2 of them Edited May 25, 2022 by villa4europe 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted May 25, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted May 25, 2022 5 minutes ago, Straggler said: That is an opinion not backed up by any fact at all. The polls state that 52% of the US public are in support of tighter gun legislation. 34% are for keeping the status quo and this is before the events of the last day. It should be a vote winner. The only reason this is in contention is because of the very vocal and willing to chuck money around pro gun lobby minority. The problem in 100% not that people would vote against a party proposing stricter gun laws. The problem is the pro gun lobby would spend huge amounts of money to campaign against such legislation and because the influence of money is so disproportionately more powerful than the will of the majority. Again the problem is not the will of the people, it is the disproportionate power of a minority with a large amount of money subverting the will of the people. Within both parties it is easier to take the NRA money and shut their eyes to the problem than it is to fight them. This is because to fight them, they would have to point out the unhealthy and fundamentally undemocratic influence of campaign donations and they all like the money more than they care about kids getting shot. gun data in USA It's doesn't seem to be much of a vote winner if it's just over half, and skews along party lines (I should point out that 77% of NRA members identify as Republican). Plus you talk about NRA using funds to lobby as the issue, but the majority of their funds come from memberships (ie citizens), and only 27% from private contributions. The american people in large part fund the NRA, enabling them to lobby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 IMHO,as far as gun violence goes in the US of A.You get what you pay for. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 2 minutes ago, HKP90 said: It's doesn't seem to be much of a vote winner if it's just over half, and skews along party lines (I should point out that 77% of NRA members identify as Republican). Plus you talk about NRA using funds to lobby as the issue, but the majority of their funds come from memberships (ie citizens), and only 27% from private contributions. The american people in large part fund the NRA, enabling them to lobby. NRA has around 5.5 million members, it's hardly a big number against the rough 160 million who would like to see change, yet it is the will of the 5.5 that prevails. Look the only point I'm making is that it would be really unfair for any politicians to point the finger at the public as the reason there has been no reform. There are many reasons that new rules have not been introduced, the smallest of which is a lack of public support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, Straggler said: NRA has around 5.5 million members, it's hardly a big number against the rough 160 million who would like to see change, yet it is the will of the 5.5 that prevails. Look the only point I'm making is that it would be really unfair for any politicians to point the finger at the public as the reason there has been no reform. There are many reasons that new rules have not been introduced, the smallest of which is a lack of public support. There might be many more pro-gun people in the US that are not official NRA members. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Straggler Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Genie said: There might be many more pro-gun people in the US that are not official NRA members. Don't doubt it, but I'm only responding to a point that funding is overwhelmingly from its membership. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 3 minutes ago, Genie said: There might be many more pro-gun people in the US that are not official NRA members. America being America I wouldn't be surprised if there are non gun owning pro democracy nutters who would vote against it because they're protecting their constitutional rights or some such bollocks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted May 25, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 minute ago, Straggler said: NRA has around 5.5 million members, it's hardly a big number against the rough 160 million who would like to see change, yet it is the will of the 5.5 that prevails. Look the only point I'm making is that it would be really unfair for any politicians to point the finger at the public as the reason there has been no reform. There are many reasons that new rules have not been introduced, the smallest of which is a lack of public support. Look, I really really hope you are right, and that attitudes across the wider public are where they should be on this, but I'm just not that optimistic about human nature. ie. 57% of people who identify as Republican (registered voters) own a gun, or have a gun in the household, and of those, 80% of non-NRA members (85% for NRA) are in favour of teachers carrying guns. 80% (88%) are in favour of increasing the number of locations where concealed guns can be carried. I just don't think it's that niche. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sam-AVFC Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 1 hour ago, StefanAVFC said: It's just selfishness. People who want to have guns want them so badly that they don't care if a bad guy with a gun shoots up a school because they are the good guy with a gun. Saw a guy on Twitter earlier responding to someone asking for one good reason for the public to be able to own guns with something like 'because I want one and that's the only reason that matters'. I just can't get over that mindset. It makes me way angrier than I should allow it to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted May 25, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted May 25, 2022 Just now, Sam-AVFC said: Saw a guy on Twitter earlier responding to someone asking for one good reason for the public to be able to own guns with something like 'because I want one and that's the only reason that matters'. I just can't get over that mindset. It makes me way angrier than I should allow it to. If it helps, when Trump gets in again their society will crumble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheAuthority Posted May 25, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted May 25, 2022 What an awful day yesterday was, and now today reading the messages from families about the kids they have lost is just as awful. And the knowledge nothing will be done makes you feel hopeless and helpless. I know "sensible gun owners." They want guns - they see them as fun toys. Those are the people we need to move not the extreme nut jobs. Sadly I don't know if it's possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 2 hours ago, Straggler said: He has a mandate, the overwhelming majority of Americans want more regulation on gun ownership. He has control of both houses and the Presidency. The problem is absolutely not the willingness of the public to go along with new gun legislation, it is 100% that the political classes (Democratic and Republican) are there to do the bidding of their donors, not the people they are supposed to represent. It would be an act of cruelty and utter hypocrisy to turn around to the American public and pin this on them. The people are let down by a corrupt system that is these days by design anti-democratic. It's not as simple as this, is it? It'd need an amendment to the constitution, a simple majority in the house and senate isn't going to cut it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted May 25, 2022 Share Posted May 25, 2022 (edited) 1 hour ago, Straggler said: NRA has around 5.5 million members, it's hardly a big number against the rough 160 million who would like to see change, yet it is the will of the 5.5 that prevails. Look the only point I'm making is that it would be really unfair for any politicians to point the finger at the public as the reason there has been no reform. There are many reasons that new rules have not been introduced, the smallest of which is a lack of public support. It absolutely is the public that is the reason for lack of reform. A majority of people might have an idea they they would prefer tighter gun laws but when they are alone in the voting booth their voting intention is obviously decided on other lines. Gun reform is not important enough for them to be the deciding factor when choosing who to vote for. It's not like people are voting for a candidate who campaigns on gun reform but once they are in office decide to become pro gun, against the wishes of those who voted for them. The pro gun candidates told everyone they were pro gun and then were duly elected and are carrying out the mandate they were elected on. Edited May 25, 2022 by LondonLax Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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