Gun violence in the USA

[mjmooney]

23 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

UK does not have a constitution if I remember correctly.

Bit of reading for ya: 

[Vancvillan]

13 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

You stayed up to 2 in the morning at the age of 3 to watch the change the clocks?

But gun ownership is a strange thing. My neighbours are gun owners  and they by and large don't own them for defence, military or political reasons. They just want to eat Bambi's Dad.

The US seems a little different if not befuddled.

I live in BC too! On the island now but spent a good deal on time in Vancouver.

Firearms owners in Canada are legally not allowed to own them for self defence. They can only be for hunting or target shooting.  As for politics - the federal Liberals have managed to pass the buck on a hand gun ban and also make the “assault weapons” ban largely toothless.  And for military - if you own more than one your probably better equipped than our army. I think we have about three helicopters and a blow up dingy.

In BC I’d say it’s mostly hunters that you see at the gun range, and then some very expensive target rifles.  Oh, and guys in their 70’s who dress up as cowboys and have six shooter competitions in fake western high streets - which is probably the best and only argument for personal possession of handguns because it’s absolutely amazing that this exists.

[Vancvillan]

24 minutes ago, MakemineVanilla said:

I guess you can't put the shit back in the donkey.

This would be a great way to end the this thread.

[fruitvilla]

23 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

No.  The tradition is that the day after you change the clocks every true Englishman must wait until its dark and then say "Look how dark it is".   It's one of those odd traditions like burning a Guy Fawkes, watching the Queen on TV on Christmas Day and boiling the door-knobs on St Pancreas Day.  

Prior to going to the current GMT/BST,  the UK had about three years of BST (68 to 71).  I preferred going to school in the dark and having some daylight hours in the afternoon. From a traffic accident point of view this was beneficial. So changing is no big deal. But apparently northerners were keen on this. Not sure why.

But you are right  true Englishmen are weird. Do you still have to practice your archery every Sunday or was that finally repealed? Keeping vaguely on topic.

 

Edited December 6, 2021 by fruitvilla

[fruitvilla]

35 minutes ago, Vancvillan said:

Firearms owners in Canada are legally not allowed to own them for self defence. They can only be for hunting or target shooting.  As for politics - the federal Liberals have managed to pass the buck on a hand gun ban and also make the “assault weapons” ban largely toothless.  And for military - if you own more than one your probably better equipped than our army. I think we have about three helicopters and a blow up dingy.

Kootenays for me.

Compared to the States, Canada has relatively sensible gun laws. I don't know how the gun registry got screwed up so badly. but that seem to result (in part) to the Harper years. I suppose the toothlessness is in part in response to not alienating the working gun owner. My neighbours (in that case) are way better armed than the military, well hunting rifles.

Edited December 6, 2021 by fruitvilla

[Mandy Lifeboats]

@fruitvillaGun ownership is a strange practice that is engrained in US traditon.  

But if you want so e examples non-sensical English Traditions may I suggest you Google the following.  I assure you they are true. 

Gloucester Cheese Rolling. Crowds of people chase a cheese rolled down a steep hill.  First to the bottom wins the cheese.  There have been many serious injuries and its banned.  It still goes ahead. 

Ottery St Mary Burning Tar Barrell Carrying.  This is a contest to see how far you can carry a burning barrel cover in tar that is placed across your shoulders.  

Edited December 6, 2021 by Mandy Lifeboats
Added details

[fruitvilla]

1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

@fruitvillaGun ownership is a strange practice that is engrained in US traditon.  

Thanks ... I spent the first twenty five years of my formative life in the UK. I still crave for a pint of bitter. (Ansell's). I saw the rise of popularity of laager, and louts.  I am only too well aware of cheese rolling and the like. My first professional match I saw was 1st Oct 1960 at Villa Park against Leicester.

While gun ownership in the US seems to be "built in", I don't see a sensible method to undo it. Limit sales and perhaps in some way limit ammunition sales. Though I suspect many would load their own cartridges.

[villa4europe]

7 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

Thanks ... I spent the first twenty five years of my formative life in the UK. I still crave for a pint of bitter. (Ansell's). I saw the rise of popularity of laager, and louts.  I am only too well aware of cheese rolling and the like. My first professional match I saw was 1st Oct 1960 at Villa Park against Leicester.

While gun ownership in the US seems to be "built in", I don't see a sensible method to undo it. Limit sales and perhaps in some way limit ammunition sales. Though I suspect many would load their own cartridges.

I think the only way to do would be social reform and cultural reform, the reduction of fear and the belief in enemies, they don't ban the guns they reduce the publics belief that they need them 

But that wouldn't fit with their politics, foreign or domestic

Edit - I would guess that the vast majority of people who don't understand americas gun stance don't understand why they want or need them, myself included, we don't live in a society where we need a gun under our pillow in case someone breaks in or a gun on our belt in case something happens as we walk down the street, it's a complete different mentality that they've built up over there 

Edited December 6, 2021 by villa4europe

[fruitvilla]

15 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

I think the only way to do would be social reform and cultural reform, the reduction of fear and the belief in enemies, they don't ban the guns they reduce the publics belief that they need them 

I agree with the sentiment. My argument against this (not so much that I don't think your point of view is not enlightened, it is) is that 74 million people voted for Trump even after four years of his Presidency.

[Straggler]

14 hours ago, fruitvilla said:

Thanks ... I spent the first twenty five years of my formative life in the UK. I still crave for a pint of bitter. (Ansell's). I saw the rise of popularity of laager, and louts.  I am only too well aware of cheese rolling and the like. My first professional match I saw was 1st Oct 1960 at Villa Park against Leicester.

While gun ownership in the US seems to be "built in", I don't see a sensible method to undo it. Limit sales and perhaps in some way limit ammunition sales. Though I suspect many would load their own cartridges.

A journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. 

The polling in the US has consistently been massively in favour of stricter gun control for decades, but action is prevented mostly thanks to the disproportionate influence of special interest groups such as the NRA.  There is a sort of myth that America loves guns and that any move to limit access is against the constitution and unpopular, but it is not followed by the facts.  Overturning Citizens United would lay the groundwork to make the decisions in government to be more about the democratic will than monied corporate influence.  There are a whole lotta steps needed to even begin that process as neither party has that as part of their agenda (they both love the money), but there are elements in the Dem party that are on board.  You then need to unstack the courts and relitigate the entire thing, which is probably the work of a generation or more. 

Whilst that is happening stricter measures on gun ownership can be brought in.  It is a huge job, almost unfathomably difficult to achieve and will be met with some quite terrifying resistance along the way, but there are already people out there working on it.  I do wonder if it is possible to have an event big enough and bloody enough that it would shift public perception enough to break through the system and make more regulation inevitable, but given what has passed so far, I don't know if such an event could happen outside of full scale revolution.

It is very literally the will of the people that gun laws should be changed.  It is a scandal that it does not happen.

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, Straggler said:

It is very literally the will of the people that gun laws should be changed.  It is a scandal that it does not happen.

They could have a referendum. Worked for Brexit. 

[Davkaus]

2 hours ago, Straggler said:

It is very literally the will of the people that gun laws should be changed.  It is a scandal that it does not happen.

I'm not expecting you to know the answer to this, because I can't find anything, but on the off chance, have you seen any evidence there's an amendment-supporting majority?

There's been a popular majority across the US for a very long time as you point out (though right now, it's just above 52% apparently). Isn't the problem that a constitutional amendment needs the support of 75% of states? That obviously shouldn't be confused with 75% of the people, it could well be the case that 50%+1 in each state support it, and you can get the support of 100% of states.

What I think is more likely, and in lieu of being able to find any research into it, this is just a hunch (with a mild dash of prejudice thrown in) is that in high-population states like California and New York you might have a large majority support, but in some of the states with, shall we say, less progressive views, you might have a strong majority against, and their state government isn't likely to go against their people.

[bannedfromHandV]

17 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

@fruitvillaGun ownership is a strange practice that is engrained in US traditon.  

But if you want so e examples non-sensical English Traditions may I suggest you Google the following.  I assure you they are true. 

Gloucester Cheese Rolling. Crowds of people chase a cheese rolled down a steep hill.  First to the bottom wins the cheese.  There have been many serious injuries and its banned.  It still goes ahead. 

Ottery St Mary Burning Tar Barrell Carrying.  This is a contest to see how far you can carry a burning barrel cover in tar that is placed across your shoulders.  

Yeah but they’re typically just considered a bit of a laugh, even when it does result in an injury or two.

I don’t know what’s meant to be funny about a military grade fully loaded automatic assault rifle, or maybe i just don’t get America humour.

[PussEKatt]

Dont be silly,they cant change the gun laws.The English could attack at any time,best to be prepared.

[blandy]

1 minute ago, PussEKatt said:

Dont be silly,they cant change the gun laws.The English could attack at any time,best to be prepared.

I know tongue in cheek, but it's their own Government (forces) attacking them they're afraid of.

[villa4europe]

15 minutes ago, blandy said:

I know tongue in cheek, but it's their own Government (forces) attacking them they're afraid of.

is it?

to me they do seem to lay it on thick with the enemies of america, not sure who it was pre war but take the commies and now terrorists, they love the idea of people coming for their freedom because they hate this great american way of life, ironically they're almost imprisoned by it

and then lay it on even thicker with the idolisation of their military home and abroad fighting those enemies, which i also considered to be part of the problem, they are very vocal on identifying and celebrating those who fight them but very vague as to who those enemies actually are, how many shootings are completely misguided have a go heroes? they're taught that shit from a young age and we along with most of western or even modern countries arent

[Chindie]

The well armed militia is meant to be a guarantee against the state overstepping it's bounds.

Obviously that's a complete nonsense in todays world but that's where it comes from. It's the symbol of the freedom of the people being unassailable by the government. The founding myth of America is one of the people rising against a government that was taking the piss, and this is ostensibly the holdover.

[Straggler]

46 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I'm not expecting you to know the answer to this, because I can't find anything, but on the off chance, have you seen any evidence there's an amendment-supporting majority?

There's been a popular majority across the US for a very long time as you point out (though right now, it's just above 52% apparently). Isn't the problem that a constitutional amendment needs the support of 75% of states? That obviously shouldn't be confused with 75% of the people, it could well be the case that 50%+1 in each state support it, and you can get the support of 100% of states.

What I think is more likely, and in lieu of being able to find any research into it, this is just a hunch (with a mild dash of prejudice thrown in) is that in high-population states like California and New York you might have a large majority support, but in some of the states with, shall we say, less progressive views, you might have a strong majority against, and their state government isn't likely to go against their people.

I've not really been talking about an amendment to the constitution at this stage as I don't think it is remotely possible.  I'm really looking for the baby steps that can pave the way towards such an amendment.  I'm referencing more the popular support of the general population for some gun ownership regulation beyond what it is at the moment.  I don't think evidence exists for constitutional amendment support of 75% of states, the country is way too partizan for that right now.  I'm pretty sure a sane debate about gun regulation is impossible.  It's an interesting thought process though, and I imagine you are right about how the states voting numbers might break down. 

For reference, the stats that I was referring to are below.  The big problem with broad questions like this one is that stricter can include everything from banning guns completely to stopping shops from selling them on a Sunday. A consensus on what should be done next is harder to come by (see Brexit).

Gallup

Quote

 

[mjmooney]

1 hour ago, blandy said:

I know tongue in cheek, but it's their own Government (forces) attacking them they're afraid of.

Because they actually think the government is socialist/communist. 

[Straggler]

I just had a moment reading back at my last post realizing that there is 11% support for less strict gun regulation.  I'm not sure how this is possible without giving them away with happy meals.  I mean, they were already being given away as an incentive to have your covid jab.