Rolta Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 How did we line up with all the necessary changes? I missed the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ferguson1 Posted February 17 Share Posted February 17 3 minutes ago, Rolta said: How did we line up with all the necessary changes? I missed the game. Could say we were 442 or a 4411. Lenglet playing right CB next to Pau. McGinn next to Luiz in the double pivot. Bailey on the right and Tielemans just behind Watkins. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TomC Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 I'm going to try a tactical interpretation of the past few months... About two months into the season, most of the league had wised up to the way we use the double pivot and play from the back. A common counter-tactic was to cut off the lanes from the back line to the double pivot by essentially man-marking Doug and Kamara, hoping to force us to advance wide and then trap us there. Pau helps us avoid this. Cut off the double pivot and he'll run up the middle with the ball himself. Either one of Doug's or Kamara's markers has to challenge Pau, freeing Doug or Kamara, or you have to commit another player to the press, freeing up space up the pitch which Pau can exploit with a pass. When Pau got injured against Brentford, we lost this ability. What followed were arguably the matches that were the death blow to our title challenge, the draw with Sheffield United and the loss to Man Utd. I don't remember the Sheffield Utd match well enough to say exactly what they did against us tactically, but Man Utd exploited his absence brilliantly in the second half, albeit they handled the double pivot slightly differently than usual...with Kamara out, rather than blocking the lanes to both pivots, they allowed the pass into Donck, then cut off any switch of the field and pressed him, knowing that his skill with the ball was not up to escaping consistently. We all blamed the loss of Kamara at the time, but looking back, you wonder if we could have avoided trouble if Pau had been there to advance the ball. It's the absence of both of them that was fatal. I would like to see Unai tweak the double pivot a bit so we are not so dependent on Pau. Maybe allow one of them to drift wide from time to time...I'll use our left side to demonstrate what I mean. If Doug drifts left, his marker has to follow to avoid allowing a wide overload. That would allow Pau more space if he's playing, but it would also instead allow the forward midfielder on that side, i.e. JJ or McGinn, to drop back and exploit the space. If a deeper marker follows him, then Doug or Moreno can cut in and exploit that space McGinn or JJ vacated. A little variety to keep the other team guessing. 1 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turvontour Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 I seem to have missed all the individual news on this but how long roughly are Kamara, Konsa and Diego Carlos expected to be out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 35 minutes ago, turvontour said: I seem to have missed all the individual news on this but how long roughly are Kamara, Konsa and Diego Carlos expected to be out? Based on the info we have, I think Kamara is around the end of the year/early next year. Diego probably a month away if it's a hamstring, and Konsa was "3 to 4 weeks" with a knee injury, so another 2 weeks? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 (edited) Are there any circumstances where a Mings, Pau, Konsa back three could work next season? ( Pau central - Ming's Left, Konsa Right ) Pau with a little license to get further forward, and Mings/Konsa closing the gap as a central two when he does so? Edited February 18 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichW Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 44 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Are there any circumstances where a Mings, Pau, Konsa back three could work next season? ( Pau central - Ming's Left, Konsa Right ) Pau with a little license to get further forward, and Mings/Konsa closing the gap as a central two when he does so? Saw a tweet yesterday that judging by the defence yesterday the original plan at the start of the season would have been Konsa Pau Mings Moreno. Was obviously concerned about two left footers before the game yesterday as you don’t really see it but I didn’t see anything hugely concerning with it so wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the first choice option for next season. Obviously will have to see how it fares over the next few games! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Delphinho123 Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 30 minutes ago, RichW said: Saw a tweet yesterday that judging by the defence yesterday the original plan at the start of the season would have been Konsa Pau Mings Moreno. Was obviously concerned about two left footers before the game yesterday as you don’t really see it but I didn’t see anything hugely concerning with it so wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the first choice option for next season. Obviously will have to see how it fares over the next few games! If Mings can reach the levels he got to last season, that is a very solid back 4 with a bit of everything. I actually think we might be in the market for two new fullbacks in the Summer. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 3 hours ago, turvontour said: I seem to have missed all the individual news on this but how long roughly are Kamara, Konsa and Diego Carlos expected to be out? Hopefully the spurs game, Failing that will probably be after the international break I guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 18 hours ago, Rolta said: I missed the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaulC Posted February 18 Share Posted February 18 I thought we didn't play such a high line yesterday or was that.just me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaVilla Posted February 18 Author Share Posted February 18 10 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Are there any circumstances where a Mings, Pau, Konsa back three could work next season? ( Pau central - Ming's Left, Konsa Right ) Pau with a little license to get further forward, and Mings/Konsa closing the gap as a central two when he does so? i have thought the same. Mings used to be a left back, so if he were the defensive left back, who came inside to form the left side of a central 3 when we are going forward, i think that could work really well if we had a top notch attacking right back. ie: NEW RB - Konsa - Pau - Mings then going forward, a back 3 of: Konsa - Pau - Mings With the RB acting like our wing back, a bit like Moreno does now on the left. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 On 18/02/2024 at 12:21, RichW said: Saw a tweet yesterday that judging by the defence yesterday the original plan at the start of the season would have been Konsa Pau Mings Moreno. Was obviously concerned about two left footers before the game yesterday as you don’t really see it but I didn’t see anything hugely concerning with it so wouldn’t be surprised if that’s the first choice option for next season. Obviously will have to see how it fares over the next few games! A good article in The Athletic about us playing two left footed centre backs and variation in goal kicks to beat Fulham's press. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 On 18/02/2024 at 11:30, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Are there any circumstances where a Mings, Pau, Konsa back three could work next season? ( Pau central - Ming's Left, Konsa Right ) Pau with a little license to get further forward, and Mings/Konsa closing the gap as a central two when he does so? I’d actually say if we had a back 3, Mkngs would be central and Pau left, as he passes would be more effective there. He could still step out with the ball. But I think we would still play Moreno, and lose one of the cms 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HKP90 Posted February 19 VT Supporter Share Posted February 19 (edited) On 18/02/2024 at 11:30, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Are there any circumstances where a Mings, Pau, Konsa back three could work next season? ( Pau central - Ming's Left, Konsa Right ) Pau with a little license to get further forward, and Mings/Konsa closing the gap as a central two when he does so? That might solve the issue of Kamara being out in the short term. If he sits between the midfield and defence, and acts almost like a DM (a bit like an old fashioned Half Back). He has the attributes for this. For me, when Mings returns, left footer or no he has to be competing with Konsa, not Pau in a back 4. Edited February 19 by HKP90 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teale's 'tache Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 I think it is important we protect our right-hand side at the moment, playing with two left-footed centre-backs any low cross into the box from that side will require them to clear the ball with their weaker foot, or get into an awkward position to clear with their left whilst facing their own goal, either of which is a recipe for disaster. I think this caused part of the confusion that resulted in the Fulham goal. I'd expect other teams to have taken note of that and be looking to take advantage. So hopefully Matty Cash's recent uptick in form continues and we can maybe work him a little more support from the midfield to strengthen that area. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 On 18/02/2024 at 22:15, MaVilla said: i have thought the same. Mings used to be a left back, so if he were the defensive left back, who came inside to form the left side of a central 3 when we are going forward, i think that could work really well if we had a top notch attacking right back. ie: NEW RB - Konsa - Pau - Mings then going forward, a back 3 of: Konsa - Pau - Mings With the RB acting like our wing back, a bit like Moreno does now on the left. Didn't Mings do his ACL playing in a left back position?....too many twists and turns, playing Full Back. I think he is better in a more central role...and maybe better on his knee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) In the pre-season, it was actually Pau that played LB and not Mings. Makes sense as it allows Pau to dictate play from the LHS but allows Mings the ultimate sweeping responsibility. Though - I'm not sure how that formation would have worked in reality as Pau would have been torched playing LB with any regularity by any half decent winger. Edited February 20 by DJBOB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bcarpet Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 On 18/02/2024 at 11:30, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Are there any circumstances where a Mings, Pau, Konsa back three could work next season? ( Pau central - Ming's Left, Konsa Right ) Pau with a little license to get further forward, and Mings/Konsa closing the gap as a central two when he does so? I think the back 3 will be how we line up next season, with the youngster from Red Star that we signed in Jan to come in at RB for Konsa when we need a tactical change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) A lot of the same principles we've worked on all year in display for this move. But what I like about Cash as 3rd CB is that he does have the option of pushing forward when needed. And that change in dynamic can cause that moment of hesitation of who marks who. This is not too dissimilar from what Spurs do with Udogie and Porro. As Cash pushes forward, Niakhate follows Bailey out wide because he doesn't want the in-form winger with a free run. But since Cash keeps pushing forward, Hudson-Odoi is a bit confused on where he should mark and position himself. Taking advantage of wingers and their lack of defensive awareness is what allows Cash to be in more space than he should have right at the edge of the box in between the fullback and CB spot - the perfect area. The rest is training ground stuff. My only slightly worry about this set up is that Tielemans is a bit too high for me. Once he sees Cash moving forward, he should take a few steps back so that he's a bit behind the play. My presumption too is that McGinn is covering for Cash at CB now. You can see how if the Bailey to Cash connection is intercepted or an errant touch, then the counter is on against McGinn and Tielemans - not an ideal scenario. You can see Gibbs-White lurking right behind Tielemans and ready to pounce on a lot of open space ahead of him. Against better teams, that will be trouble. Edit: as a side note - look at Hudson-Odoi and then Elanga's effort tracking back. This is kind of part and parcel why Unai doesn't like to do a two winger option like Bailey and Diaby at the same time (and part of the reason Arsenal can get away with it with the wor krate Saka and Martinelli). You need the wingers working just as hard tracking back - and JJ on the left can especially give that support. Bailey has improved leaps and bounds but wingers will naturally not be as good at this. Forest fielding Hudson-Odoi, Gibbs-White, and Elanga has that risk because all it takes is a few weak links or switching off to be opened up like we did to them. Edited February 26 by DJBOB 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts