Team shape, tactics and personnel

[DJBOB]

19 minutes ago, andym said:

I wouldn't say its a new thing in terms of the relationship between RB and Kamara though; Kamara has dropped into the back 3 with Cash pushing forward much more so than Konsa previously this season, and we were fine... 

However, in those instances, admittedly we did generally have different personnel elsewhere e.g. Diaby and Zaniolo in as 10's either side of Watkins, McGinn would tuck into the middle with Luiz etc, keeping it strong in the centre of the pitch. 

Its like we're in a bit of a halfway house with Cash in the side recently, a build up set up on our right side that has worked before, but doesn't mesh with who's currently further forwards, with the issues as you've identified. 

I still think for the first goal conceded last night though that was more of very poor execution in a situation where we should have been the ones taking advantage. I'd have been annoyed if Konsa was playing and hadn't looked for that overlap, because it was on.

We had a decent stretch with Kamara/Cash but as you said - it required a specific combination. McGinn on the right for the press and to play in CM and Diaby at the second striker role for any pace and combination.

The problem is that Bailey is our in form man and he does demonstrably worse infield with Cash overlapping and gives us the resulting problems.

For me - given our injury crisis - I would stick with Cash at RB and stop the overlap in order to keep playing Bailey. And then I would drop McGinn (which I know Unai will be loathe to do as captain) and play either JJ or Zaniolo on the left for fitness. McGinn doesn't have the capability to get up and down the pitch like that in transition whereas JJ and Zaniolo do have the pace to track back and also attack the space in transition.

Watkins Tielemans/McGinn (fitness)

JJ/Zaniolo Luiz Kamara Bailey

Moreno Lenglet Carlos Cash

This would give you pace and width both in attack and defense both left and right - three central players who can link up and maintain possession in the middle and then a base of Lenglet-Carlos-Cash at the back. It's not perfect but playing McGinn/Tielemans at the same time against high press sides has shown to be a losing midfield battle.

Edited February 8 by DJBOB

[VillanousOne]

Konsa and Pau driving forward creates space, without that we are really struggle to play through the midfield

[PaulC]

Is the system or the players? Are we too narrow and have teams figured us out particularly  at Villa Park. Guess we will find our against Man u. 

[VillanousOne]

16 hours ago, PaulC said:

Is the system or the players? Are we too narrow and have teams figured us out particularly  at Villa Park. Guess we will find our against Man u. 

I personally think it's partially a very limited set of tactics and an even more limited set of players being available to execute them.

Our best eleven can in most instances, hang with anyone, especially at home, but bit by bit injuries and poor form have exposed our limitations.

Not many teams have a plan B and we are now firmly operating with our B list defence and a midfield that look utterly knackered and off form.

[romavillan]

On 08/02/2024 at 15:59, VillanousOne said:

Konsa and Pau driving forward creates space, without that we are really struggle to play through the midfield

Yeah when they come forward it's an extra man. Plus they both tend to find nicer passes into the midfielders from the back too.

[KentVillan]

57 minutes ago, romavillan said:

Yeah when they come forward it's an extra man. Plus they both tend to find nicer passes into the midfielders from the back too.

And you can view this as “punishing the press”.

ie when we have Konsa and Pau in the side, high pressing us is a huge risk, because that’s what they want the oppo to do. It just creates more space for us to progress the ball.

But with our current lineup, the oppo get much more return on that high press, with a lot less risk. Suddenly the dynamic of our games against the better sides is we look panicky and under pressure for 90 mins.

That wasn’t happening before, even though the tactics were largely the same.

It’s a personnel issue in my view. Although maybe Emery could experiment with playing tighter and deeper for a few games while we wait for key players to return.

As the Shef Utd game showed, against weaker oppo, the tactics still work well. I think it’s more in these Man Utd / Newcastle / Chelsea type games where the personnel change has turned winnable games into big challenges.

[Captain_Townsend]

If Digne and Pau are in contention, that is a major psychological boost

[Villa87]

13 minutes ago, Captain_Townsend said:

If Digne and Pau are in contention, that is a major psychological boost

I’d be tempted to start both. Risk v reward and all that!

[Skruff]

 Given that most things breaks down with Cash on the right side, McGinn seems half the player on the left. Tielemans seems off the pace, and Moreno is left isolated on the left, I would have like to see something along these lines, if we have 3 CBs for it. 

    Baily-Watkins-Diaby

Moreno-Luiz-Kamara-McGinn

            CB-CB-CB

Or the 4-3-3 as someone mentioned earlier in the thread.

Without our first 11 injury free and in form, we seem to struggle with the current system and tactics. Unai seems reluctant to change things up, however he's thinking and planning with a broader understanding and longer perspective on things.

[DJBOB]

I doubt Emery will change his formations all that much. Would be shocked to see a 433 or any 5 at the back systems. 

[PaulC]

1 hour ago, Skruff said:

 Given that most things breaks down with Cash on the right side, McGinn seems half the player on the left. Tielemans seems off the pace, and Moreno is left isolated on the left, I would have like to see something along these lines, if we have 3 CBs for it. 

    Baily-Watkins-Diaby

Moreno-Luiz-Kamara-McGinn

            CB-CB-CB

Or the 4-3-3 as someone mentioned earlier in the thread.

Without our first 11 injury free and in form, we seem to struggle with the current system and tactics. Unai seems reluctant to change things up, however he's thinking and planning with a broader understanding and longer perspective on things.

Sounds good to me. Although unless Pau is ready to go then we are struggling to find 3 cbs

[Vive_La_Villa]

Changing the way you’ve always approached games due to a couple of bad results is the sign of a poor manager in my opinion. 

[CVByrne]

I don't feel there is anything wrong with our tactics, top teams with top coaches had game plans for us. The high structured press Chelsea and Newcastle had put our build up under pressure and crucially they got the first goal. This immediately cedes control and then they get a quick second goal. We did this structured press against City after all and it's why we dominated them. 

We need to tweak things, we need to be confident in our style as we are set up to exploit the high press as it creates space behind it. We need to pass through it and attack. This is the thing Pau Torres is probably the best in the world at killer passes through the press to crate a direct attack. Digne has an excellent long pass also. 

It's for the top sides we need Pau, as they have the best structured high press.

 

 

[Kiwivillan]

2 hours ago, CVByrne said:

We did this structured press against City after all and it's why we dominated them. 

Guardiola arrogantly played a midfield 4 behind Haaland without a single CM. That helped us

[Made In Aston]

16 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Changing the way you’ve always approached games due to a couple of bad results is the sign of a poor manager in my opinion. 

It's not just a couple of results. Performances since the arsenal game have been poor. It is not bad form and is 100% a tactical issue. Compare the game against Sheffield United away, where we were given space and were allowed to play our way - we hammer them. In contrast, we were not given any space against Everton, Burnley, Sheffield, Newcastle and Chelsea at home and the result is a low points haul and exit from the fa cup.

If we don't change our approach then the trend will continue - it's the old adage...do the same thing, get the same result.

[DJBOB]

I suspect Unai will tweak the personnel, try to fit players in the right roles and make some changes but the larger point is that I don’t think he will do a wholesale formation change to a 5 at the back or 433. If shows a lack of conviction in his beliefs. 
 
Going 5 at the back started the Deano spiral, Gerrard switching from trying to play out the back to “keep it tight and hit it long”. 
 
We will play the same way but who plays in what role will be the important change. 

[jacketspuds]

Tweaking the personnel is fine, but we’ve got to cut out out the silly mistakes and sloppy passes.

Our midfield is one of the best in the league, but sometimes they seem to all have a shit performance at the same time.

[DJBOB]

 

On 08/02/2024 at 09:53, DJBOB said:

We had a decent stretch with Kamara/Cash but as you said - it required a specific combination. McGinn on the right for the press and to play in CM and Diaby at the second striker role for any pace and combination.

The problem is that Bailey is our in form man and he does demonstrably worse infield with Cash overlapping and gives us the resulting problems.

For me - given our injury crisis - I would stick with Cash at RB and stop the overlap in order to keep playing Bailey. And then I would drop McGinn (which I know Unai will be loathe to do as captain) and play either JJ or Zaniolo on the left for fitness. McGinn doesn't have the capability to get up and down the pitch like that in transition whereas JJ and Zaniolo do have the pace to track back and also attack the space in transition.

Watkins Tielemans/McGinn (fitness)

JJ/Zaniolo Luiz Kamara Bailey

Moreno Lenglet Carlos Cash

This would give you pace and width both in attack and defense both left and right - three central players who can link up and maintain possession in the middle and then a base of Lenglet-Carlos-Cash at the back. It's not perfect but playing McGinn/Tielemans at the same time against high press sides has shown to be a losing midfield battle.

Moved Cash back to 3rd CB and we looked so much more natural. The addition of JJ surely helped our dynamism. 
 
For as gut wrenching as the loss was, this was the first match since City/Arsenal where we were routinely breaking the press and getting in between their lines. 
 
Hope he sticks with something similar going forward. 

[DJBOB]

The Kamara blow will be felt the hardest for us going forward.

Other things we have to reshuffle the pack, but Kamara was a unique player in his ability to win duels, drop into a back 5, generally good passing, and ability to carry the ball past his markers.

McGinn - for all of his other strengths - can really only play a bit part in that double pivot position. His ability to shield the ball is negated by his inaccurate precise passing in the first phase of build up. He also doesn't have the natural ability to sniff out attacks like Kamara does. Tielemans has shown several times that he is neither quick enough tracking back or bursting past his marker on a consistent basis to play in this double pivot.

Tim - from the little I've seen of him - is maybe the only one that is a natural physical profile but can he do the defensive work of the game enough? It'll be a tough ask.

It might seem overeager to loan out Dendoncker but I'm relatively confident that given a run of games, he would have been terrible as a consistent starter, much like the rest of the back line.

The injuries I think we have been able to mitigate but this one might actually cause impactful damage for the squad personnel going forward.

Edited February 12 by DJBOB

[Farlz]

Unai has got some work on his hands to try and get us through this one. 

Either McGinn or Youri aren't good in a 2 imo, think we've seen enough to know that. Iroegbunam we don't really know but I don't think he'll even be given much of a chance if I'm honest. 

This is a disaster.