Team shape, tactics and personnel

[DJBOB]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Good answer.....and I can see the reasoning, and I agree, but only to a degree....and I still think, there is more to it.

The emboldened bit certainly haunts me, when we get carried away with expectations.

I still saw things close up...that I wouldn't necessarily use the system as a scapegoat...albeit not suggesting that as a euphemism, for not agreeing with you, because I do.

I still think this team, has too many players, with attacking bias, playing in defensive positions.......As much as I accept the way we play, and I watch other teams......it keeps coming back to me.

I think some of the conceded goals lately, won't let this drift away from my thinking.

I can think of many teams, where their first goal would likely be cut out....whether Sarr would be closed down or Maddison be out muscled......as good as the goal appeared in one perspective, in another perspective it was puny and immature.

Like you, I hope it is down to a set up change, but I have my doubts.....time will tell, on how we approach games moving forward.

Moving forward in general, I am happy with the attacking side of our game, not so happy with the defending.....I think we will make it hard for ourselves, if we stay like this.

 

 

Don’t necessarily disagree but I found it impossible to ignore our shape when we set out. Literally eyes popping out of my head out of disbelief. 
 
Spurs, in much the same way, are terrible defenders when asked to do a lot of defending and yet we asked them to do nothing. 
 
I think if you took a poll of Villa fans, the last thing they would say about this season is that we are resolute defenders in our own half and yet that’s we set out to try and do. 

[TRO]

17 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Don’t necessarily disagree but I found it impossible to ignore our shape when we set out. Literally eyes popping out of my head out of disbelief. 
 
Spurs, in much the same way, are terrible defenders when asked to do a lot of defending and yet we asked them to do nothing. 
 
I think if you took a poll of Villa fans, the last thing they would say about this season is that we are resolute defenders in our own half and yet that’s we set out to try and do. 

I agree.

However, The amount of discussion time defending gets, I am unsure it gets the consideration, it should deserve.

I still have a devilish thought that had the application, from every player been there, the set up could have worked.....5-3-2 could have worked.

I mean, should Cash have shat himself, every time Johnson came near him.....

Does the set up dictate, sparse marking and rare pressing.....and calamitous challenges disguised as defending....Many admit that our defending is not 4th place representative....and yet our yellow cards are 73 and we are 3rd worst in the league.....something to ponder.

I don't think as a club.... we don't consider defending, with enough priority....I think if you took a poll, some would say " We don't play that way".............Ouch!!!!

[DJBOB]

7 minutes ago, TRO said:

I agree.

However, The amount of discussion time defending gets, I am unsure it gets the consideration, it should deserve.

I still have a devilish thought that had the application, from every player been there, the set up could have worked.....5-3-2 could have worked.

I mean, should Cash have shat himself, every time Johnson came near him.....

Does the set up dictate, sparse marking and rare pressing.....and calamitous challenges disguised as defending....Many admit that our defending is not 4th place representative....and yet our yellow cards are 73 and we are 3rd worst in the league.....something to ponder.

I don't think as a club.... we don't consider defending, with enough priority....I think if you took a poll, some would say " We don't play that way".............Ouch!!!!

Respectfully disagree. The 532 explicitly allows the opponent to outnumber us in the midfield - hence the sparse marking and rare pressing. There are almost 0 sides that use the 532 as an effective press.

[duke313]

24 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Respectfully disagree. The 532 explicitly allows the opponent to outnumber us in the midfield - hence the sparse marking and rare pressing. There are almost 0 sides that use the 532 as an effective press.

The complete opposite of our 442 box formation that allows us to outnumber teams in midfield.  Strange why Emery went with the back 5, considering we'd only have had 1 day to train with it after the Ajax game,

[TRO]

56 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Respectfully disagree. The 532 explicitly allows the opponent to outnumber us in the midfield - hence the sparse marking and rare pressing. There are almost 0 sides that use the 532 as an effective press.

On one hand, we are saying he is a tactical maestro....and on the other we are questioning his set up??????????????????

However, I am dismissing nothing, just offering additional factors.

I am not professing to say, I know, why he did it or the answer to why we was so inept second half.....other than a number of things during the game irked me.

One player drops in to midfield and its 5-4-1........during a game, with the dynamics it brings, all set ups morph, back and forth.....game intelligence also plays a big part.....as the initiative shifts, so does the pattern of play.

A general observation.....................It's also apparent, if a player is having a hard time, and a team mate, comes over to help out....that also distorts the pattern of play.

Much in football comes down to winning your individual duels and dominating your position, on the field. I am not dismissing your point, just illuminating other contributory factors.

Ps you could play 6 in midfield, but if they don't do their jobs its cosmetic.

PPS...I can only hazard a guess why he went with 5 at the back.......He didn't think we was good enough, with 4.....Maybe, if we went like Sheff Utd at home..... we might have got a draw....I am joking, but we was between a rock and a hard place, the way we played.

 

 

 

[DJBOB]

44 minutes ago, TRO said:

On one hand, we are saying he is a tactical maestro....and on the other we are questioning his set up??????????????????

However, I am dismissing nothing, just offering additional factors.

I am not professing to say, I know, why he did it or the answer to why we was so inept second half.....other than a number of things during the game irked me.

One player drops in to midfield and its 5-4-1........during a game, with the dynamics it brings, all set ups morph, back and forth.....game intelligence also plays a big part.....as the initiative shifts, so does the pattern of play.

A general observation.....................It's also apparent, if a player is having a hard time, and a team mate, comes over to help out....that also distorts the pattern of play.

Much in football comes down to winning your individual duels and dominating your position, on the field. I am not dismissing your point, just illuminating other contributory factors.

Ps you could play 6 in midfield, but if they don't do their jobs its cosmetic.

PPS...I can only hazard a guess why he went with 5 at the back.......He didn't think we was good enough, with 4.....Maybe, if we went like Sheff Utd at home..... we might have got a draw....I am joking, but we was between a rock and a hard place, the way we played.

 

 

 

I do think he is a tactical maestro but he's not invulnerable to making mistakes.

It is a good point that he went with 5 because he didn't believe in a 4, but not for the first time this season - he has gone to tactical hijinx in order to try and solve the problem (defenders not good enough, midfielders not good enough, various injuries and suspensions).

It is sometimes a failing for someone as tactically astute as Unai to try and outthink his way to solve our problems. When we have played the way we're supposed to play - we have, at the minimum - including the Sheffield home game, at least controlled the game.

When he has deviated and tried something else (Chelsea cup fixtures, Newcastle home, Spurs away 1st half and home, any of the Cash RM formations) - it has been disastrous.

To quote you - sometimes we would be better served if we just lined up and tried to outduel the opponents at hand. We might lose, but at least we'll give our players a fighting chance. Unai has sometimes been the architech of our own problems facing the press by tinkering around with the squad in an effort to "manage" the game.

Chelsea at home and Newcastle at home - he played Tielemans and McGinn as the wide mids - which predictably resulted in us getting overrun

Bournemouth away - played Tielemans in the double pivot and suffered greatly as a result

Tottenham away - Cash at RM disaster

Wolves away - Cash at RM disaster again

Liverpool away - Cash at RM disaster again

This isn't some giant misattribution of our players. It's Unai tinkering and fielding these suboptimal lineups. He should trust in certain players to perform a job. McGinn won't be as good as Kamara. Diaby might not be as good Bailey. Zaniolo might not be as good as JJ. But fielding this weird lineups and sacrificing the system in an effort to hide certain players has not served us well.

Edited March 12 by DJBOB

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

Respectfully disagree. The 532 explicitly allows the opponent to outnumber us in the midfield - hence the sparse marking and rare pressing. There are almost 0 sides that use the 532 as an effective press.

Respectfully disagree back!

I think if it's done correctly, it's a formation I like.

That should be able to form a 3 - 5 - 2 effectively if everyone is in sync and working hard.

Which should be more than enough for solidifying midfield.

So either we implemented wrong or our players just weren't on it correctly imo.

[DJBOB]

Just now, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Respectfully disagree back!

I think if it's done correctly, it's a formation I like.

That should be able to form a 3 - 5 - 2 effectively if everyone is in sync and working hard.

Which should be more than enough for solidifying midfield.

So either we implemented wrong or our players just weren't on it correctly imo.

That's always the argument on the 532 but it's hardly ever the case and requires exceptional wingbacks. That's why you'll only really see it in some Italian sides where the pace of the game isn't so outrageous.

It's the same arguments when Lambert did the 532. When Deano did the 532. It never bears out in the prem. Tuchel and Conte both tried to go with a heavily wingback formation 352 and were run out of the prem because they do not have the elite wingbacks with absurd stamina to make it possible.

[TRO]

29 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I do think he is a tactical maestro but he's not invulnerable to making mistakes.

It is a good point that he went with 5 because he didn't believe in a 4, but not for the first time this season - he has gone to tactical hijinx in order to try and solve the problem (defenders not good enough, midfielders not good enough, various injuries and suspensions).

It is sometimes a failing for someone as tactically astute as Unai to try and outthink his way to solve our problems. When we have played the way we're supposed to play - we have, at the minimum - including the Sheffield home game, at least controlled the game.

When he has deviated and tried something else (Chelsea cup fixtures, Newcastle home, Spurs away 1st half and home, any of the Cash RM formations) - it has been disastrous.

To quote you - sometimes we would be better served if we just lined up and tried to outduel the opponents at hand. We might lose, but at least we'll give our players a fighting chance.

Do forgive me....but I am not a great believer, in setups and tactical formations as the be all and end all.....I believe there is a lot more to consider......That's not dismissing it as irrelevant, not saying that.

I do believe, you can get the set up wrong( ideally) and still get a favourable result....Liverpool play 4-3-3.... we did when we won the league......teams vary in their adoption of "go to" formations, but deviate when playing perceived better teams.

Many things in football over the years, have become fashionable to gain an edge.....but in most cases the best players/ managers win the trophies.....Many things are sought to gain edges, but they are not always the main source.

Best player does not mean just talent, but primarily it does.....but application, usually goes hand in hand with the talent of best players.....you rarely see top talent, slacking or not using it....rarely does top talent not run, and trot.

I think teams who come at us, and run at us, get huge purchase on securing the initiative in a game....I can think of very few players in out team, when you discuss stopping the opposition, as a topic, spring to mind......many of our players have been bought with attacking in mind.

I am definitely not suggesting we move away from our attacking style, but I am suggesting we become more robust and resilient, when we are without the ball....I want us to be more believable, when we haven't got the ball, and miserly in the box particularly with set pieces.

 

 

 

 

Edited March 12 by TRO

[DJBOB]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

Do forgive me....but I am not a great believer, in setups and tactical formations as the be all and end all.....I believe there is a lot more to consider......That's not dismissing it as irrelevant, not saying that.

I do believe, you can get the set up wrong( ideally) and still get a favourable result....Liverpool play 4-3-3.... we did when we won the league......teams vary in their adoption of "go to" formations, but deviate when playing perceived better teams.

Many things in football over the years, have become fashionable to gain an edge.....but in most cases the best players/ managers win the trophies.....Many things are sought to gain edges, but they are not always the main source.

Best player does not mean just talent, but primarily it does.....but application, usually goes hand in hand with the talent of best players.....you rarely see top talent, slacking or not using it....rarely does top talent not run, and trot.

I think teams who come at us, and run at us, get huge purchase on securing the initiative in a game....I can think of very few players in out team, when you discuss stopping the opposition, as a topic, spring to mind......many of our players have been bought with attacking in mind.

I am definitely not suggesting we move away from our attacking style, but I am suggesting we become more robust and resilient, when we are without the ball....I want us to be more believable, when we haven't got the ball, and miserly in the box particularly with set pieces.

 

 

 

 

I mean it would just be going around in circles. We don't have the players to be "robust" defensively. We can trap, we can force uncomfortable situations and make them play a certain way. But we are about 4 elite defenders short of being 'robust' defenders.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I mean it would just be going around in circles. We don't have the players to be "robust" defensively. We can trap, we can force uncomfortable situations and make them play a certain way. But we are about 4 elite defenders short of being 'robust' defenders.

I have to live with that......but then overall high expectations are not realistic.

Personally, I think Unai has worked wonders, with what he has.....I hope he doesn't get despondent, with the reactions of recent defeats, because this current team is not good enough, in crucial area's

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

2 hours ago, DJBOB said:

That's always the argument on the 532 but it's hardly ever the case and requires exceptional wingbacks. That's why you'll only really see it in some Italian sides where the pace of the game isn't so outrageous.

It's the same arguments when Lambert did the 532. When Deano did the 532. It never bears out in the prem. Tuchel and Conte both tried to go with a heavily wingback formation 352 and were run out of the prem because they do not have the elite wingbacks with absurd stamina to make it possible.

Guessing this is why one of the first things Unai did when he came in was Go for a fullback.

Guess his systems rely on them heavily.

So I reckon if we raise the quality of the full/wingbacks we automatically raise our performances.

[DJBOB]

2 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Guessing this is why one of the first things Unai did when he came in was Go for a fullback.

Guess his systems rely on them heavily.

So I reckon if we raise the quality of the full/wingbacks we automatically raise our performances.

Unfortunately everyone else in Europe is looking for the same thing. One of the hardest positions to upgrade on.

Only so many people that can fit that profile.

[TRO]

On 12/03/2024 at 16:35, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Respectfully disagree back!

I think if it's done correctly, it's a formation I like.

That should be able to form a 3 - 5 - 2 effectively if everyone is in sync and working hard.

Which should be more than enough for solidifying midfield.

So either we implemented wrong or our players just weren't on it correctly imo.

I think you are spot on Shaun.

With a slight adjustment....5-3-2....can be anything...and I have said before during a game the dynamics of the game, does encourage changes, naturally.

There were one on one instances in this game, where we was second in the duel....that I struggle to see how a system, could affect that.

If you don't win you duels, or do individual competencies/ disciplines....a system won't bail you out.

 

[IrishVilla10]

 Even when mcginn comes back I’d like to see us continue with this

[TomC]

On 12/03/2024 at 12:37, DJBOB said:

That's always the argument on the 532 but it's hardly ever the case and requires exceptional wingbacks. That's why you'll only really see it in some Italian sides where the pace of the game isn't so outrageous.

It's the same arguments when Lambert did the 532. When Deano did the 532. It never bears out in the prem. Tuchel and Conte both tried to go with a heavily wingback formation 352 and were run out of the prem because they do not have the elite wingbacks with absurd stamina to make it possible.

If I remember correctly, we ran the 5-3-2/3-5-2 fairly successfully under Brain Little and John Gregory. You can't say Alan Wright and Gary Charles/Fernando Nelson were elite level. That said, it was new to England at the time, so maybe we did well simply because of the novelty.

It was Brazil 2002 that really popularized the 5-3-2/3-5-2 with Cafu and Roberto Carlos. Very few teams have players anywhere near that.

 

[duke313]

What on earth is going on with our set pieces?  It seemed like West Ham were going to score with every single corner they got, whilst we could have taken 100 corners and not scored.  My heart rate goes up everytime we concede a corner.

[srsmithusa]

Team shape is always interesting but it's entirely abstract.  It depends entirely on the skills and capabilities of your roster.  If you don't have speed, you cannot play high pressure, or a high line, or a counter-attacking strategy.  Part of our problem this season is that Mings, Pau, Longlet are all most natural and comfortable at LB.  Similarly, for our double pivot,  Kamara and Luiz are great.  Kamara more comfortable and effective more defensive, Luiz more comfortable and effective more attacking.  But with Kamara out.  Tielmans, McGinn, Luiz are all  more attacking.  So, does someone play outside of comfort?  Both of double pivot play outside comfort?  or change to a different midfield scheme.  Even though Emory prefers the double pivot and we've had great success, we might be better to shift to a diamond midfield to push Luiz, McGinn, or Tielmans much farther forward.  But that might mean that a back 5 with attacking wingbacks might suit us better.  

Shape must follow player abilities, not vice versa.

[DJBOB]

18 minutes ago, srsmithusa said:

Team shape is always interesting but it's entirely abstract.  It depends entirely on the skills and capabilities of your roster.  If you don't have speed, you cannot play high pressure, or a high line, or a counter-attacking strategy.  Part of our problem this season is that Mings, Pau, Longlet are all most natural and comfortable at LB.  Similarly, for our double pivot,  Kamara and Luiz are great.  Kamara more comfortable and effective more defensive, Luiz more comfortable and effective more attacking.  But with Kamara out.  Tielmans, McGinn, Luiz are all  more attacking.  So, does someone play outside of comfort?  Both of double pivot play outside comfort?  or change to a different midfield scheme.  Even though Emory prefers the double pivot and we've had great success, we might be better to shift to a diamond midfield to push Luiz, McGinn, or Tielmans much farther forward.  But that might mean that a back 5 with attacking wingbacks might suit us better.  

Shape must follow player abilities, not vice versa.

Its an interesting philosophy because you have positional coach philosophies like Pep, Arteta, Unai, RDZ and then you have more flexible and player led philosophies like Ancelotti, Zidane, and Scaloni. 
 
Most club managers are positional and system coaches so I doubt we will deploy a much different system even with our injuries. We’ve adjusted our tactics - for example, we go long much more frequently without Kamara’s ball retention and press evasion. But I doubt the system will change much. 
 
National managers tend to have a more player led philosophy since they can’t train the patterns with their limited time. 

[srsmithusa]

49 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Its an interesting philosophy because you have positional coach philosophies like Pep, Arteta, Unai, RDZ and then you have more flexible and player led philosophies like Ancelotti, Zidane, and Scaloni. 
 
Most club managers are positional and system coaches so I doubt we will deploy a much different system even with our injuries. We’ve adjusted our tactics - for example, we go long much more frequently without Kamara’s ball retention and press evasion. But I doubt the system will change much. 
 
National managers tend to have a more player led philosophy since they can’t train the patterns with their limited time. 

Good observation, but I think the managers that do well with positional philosophies tend to be those with significant resources to recruit and sign the player skills that suit the role.   IMO, thinking positional in your recruiting is ideal, but thinking in a player capabilities mode is essential to succeed when you have multiple injuries and availability issues.   I think the best managers are able to do both and switch based on the resources available.