CarryOnVilla Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 On 29/08/2022 at 19:09, DJBOB said: The blame can be shared a bit amongst the players, the makeup of transfers brought in, and the lack of sell-ons we have had over the years. But I'm not sure how we can avoid laying the blame on the manager for diabolical performance after diabolical performance. Buendia was doing the bits on a Norwich team that was awful, but is relegated to subs and a start here or there? Ings - maybe on the other side of the age curve for the price we paid - scored 22 and 22 and 12 before hitting only 7 goals last season with us. Leon Bailey was being tracked by many a team above us and can't get in 3 matches in a row? Cash was player of the season and now seems scared of his own shadow once he crosses the halfway line but is still being asked to be the main outlet on the right? McGinn, a Scotland talisman and a fan favorite, is putting more time in playing RB than he exists near the opposition box? We have seen this story before. The rot is set in and the players have lost confidence. Might as well have the Vecna clock ticking at this point, because it is just a matter of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MessiWillSignForVilla Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 55 minutes ago, Mister_a said: It's this for me, I consider myself to be relatively smart, but I have no idea what SG is doing or even trying to do, and suspect that with SG, that makes two of us. I'll preface this by saying I want Gerrard out, but to be fair, I can see what is supposed to be happening with those tactical choices, I just think it's down to poor coaching for why it's not coming off. Essentially the full backs are required to provide the width as the tactic is initially based off the idea of the 2 10s Gerrard used at Rangers - wide players that cut inside and operate more centrally than where they line up. So the full backs push high up the pitch to provide options on the wing when a team can't be broken down centrally, something that refocuses the attack and presents opportunities to stretch and open up stubborn defences. This leads to the team being vunerable on the counter with just 2 CBs back, so the CMs will fill these gaps whilst the ball is on their side so that they can be both an option to recycle the ball and to drop back if the ball is lost. The other CM would be more central when the ball is on the other side of the pitch to help with possession. Usually teams with high attacking full backs make up for this with either 3 CBs or a DM that drops between the defence, and I actually think if done properly, the intended style is a good innovation to try to maintain defensive stability on the counter whilst keeping numbers in midfield. However, this clearly also requires two further things, the aforementioned 2 10s operating centrally and occupying the attacking roles CMs would often take up, and a DM sat centrally to offer an option to recycle the ball whilst being able to break up any midfield counters, and this is where the way we currently do it breaks down, especially when you add in the CMs staying wide instead of moving inside when they are needed. By going with 2 STs and an AM, we sacrifice a player that is dropping into the midfield area to provide possession options. We then have a DM that seems to be instructed to drop between the defenders, which gives us the worst of both worlds as when we gain possession it's as if our midfield 3 run away from each as fast as possible, when they should be working in tandem. This results in our midfield being completely abandoned and resembling a donut more than a structured attacking set up. It also results in our AM being required to drop far deeper than he should just to collect the ball, and when he does, he doesn't have options. Below are 3 visualisations of how I think we should look approaching the final third, but the system has been implemented awfully which results in what we actually see. Notice how the ball holder in the three examples always has 6 short passing options, with options forward, left, right and back? Obviously I have just chosen where to put the players to facilitate that and a game scenario would change things, but I think by judging Gerrard's Rangers team and the tactical decisions we do see, those shapes are the intended outcome of the tactics. The problem is we don't see it due to a combination of poor coaching, shoe-horning in players, muddled instructions and not adapting the style to the personnel changes to the line up. I think it is right to criticise Gerrard for those tactical choices, especially when they are poorly implemented, but I can see the intent there and how a competent manager might get it to work. As I finish this I realise this should probably be in the team shape thread, so apologies to the mods if you want to move it. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pacbuddies Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 4 minutes ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said: I'll preface this by saying I want Gerrard out, but to be fair, I can see what is supposed to be happening with those tactical choices, I just think it's down to poor coaching for why it's not coming off. Essentially the full backs are required to provide the width as the tactic is initially based off the idea of the 2 10s Gerrard used at Rangers - wide players that cut inside and operate more centrally than where they line up. So the full backs push high up the pitch to provide options on the wing when a team can't be broken down centrally, something that refocuses the attack and presents opportunities to stretch and open up stubborn defences. This leads to the team being vunerable on the counter with just 2 CBs back, so the CMs will fill these gaps whilst the ball is on their side so that they can be both an option to recycle the ball and to drop back if the ball is lost. The other CM would be more central when the ball is on the other side of the pitch to help with possession. Usually teams with high attacking full backs make up for this with either 3 CBs or a DM that drops between the defence, and I actually think if done properly, the intended style is a good innovation to try to maintain defensive stability on the counter whilst keeping numbers in midfield. However, this clearly also requires two further things, the aforementioned 2 10s operating centrally and occupying the attacking roles CMs would often take up, and a DM sat centrally to offer an option to recycle the ball whilst being able to break up any midfield counters, and this is where the way we currently do it breaks down, especially when you add in the CMs staying wide instead of moving inside when they are needed. By going with 2 STs and an AM, we sacrifice a player that is dropping into the midfield area to provide possession options. We then have a DM that seems to be instructed to drop between the defenders, which gives us the worst of both worlds as when we gain possession it's as if our midfield 3 run away from each as fast as possible, when they should be working in tandem. This results in our midfield being completely abandoned and resembling a donut more than a structured attacking set up. It also results in our AM being required to drop far deeper than he should just to collect the ball, and when he does, he doesn't have options. Below are 3 visualisations of how I think we should look approaching the final third, but the system has been implemented awfully which results in what we actually see. Notice how the ball holder in the three examples always has 6 short passing options, with options forward, left, right and back? Obviously I have just chosen where to put the players to facilitate that and a game scenario would change things, but I think by judging Gerrard's Rangers team and the tactical decisions we do see, those shapes are the intended outcome of the tactics. The problem is we don't see it due to a combination of poor coaching, shoe-horning in players, muddled instructions and not adapting the style to the personnel changes to the line up. I think it is right to criticise Gerrard for those tactical choices, especially when they are poorly implemented, but I can see the intent there and how a competent manager might get it to work. As I finish this I realise this should probably be in the team shape thread, so apologies to the mods if you want to move it. You could have saved loads of time typing all that up and had a beer instead simply by stating that Gerrard is shit! 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MessiWillSignForVilla Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Just now, pacbuddies said: You could have saved loads of time typing all that up and had a beer instead simply by stating that Gerrard is shit! Nah, I would've had to do work, this was a much better use of time 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mister_a Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 7 minutes ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said: The problem is we don't see it due to a combination of poor coaching, shoe-horning in players, muddled instructions and not adapting the style to the personnel changes to the line up. I think it is right to criticise Gerrard for those tactical choices, especially when they are poorly implemented, but I can see the intent there and how a competent manager might get it to work. Great post. That's kind of the issue, we need a competent manager to get that kind of system to work, and SG is far from competent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 (edited) Ironically - if he just switched a few things, it would work out better. Have your wingers as your wide options, your 8's sitting in the middle and then your fullbacks covering the fullback area. But then again - that's just a 433. Funny how a manager's pride/ego/stubbornness gets in the way of playing the same way, just redistributing the players to what they're good at - attackers with space, midfielders in midfield, defenders defending. It's this kind of dereliction of the obvious and the basics that has gotten Stevie to where he is. You have to blend pragmatism with your style. Just spending bucket loads of cash trying to revamp a squad into a style that isn't guaranteed to work won't get you there. I think that's Stevie's other issue - "If I could just get the players I want, this would work!" - but that's not the world 99% of clubs live in (except Pep). Edited August 31, 2022 by DJBOB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 I wouldn't mind the high fullbacks if they were actually creating. They just hang out near the goal line and do sweet F.A. so what's the point? I'm not even going to mention Klopp's Liverpool, Roberto **** Martinez showed how to play with high fullbacks at Everton. It helped that Leighton Baines was really creative, but it's not like Digne isn't either. It's just that Gerrard doesn't know how to set them up. He hasn't thought things through any further than "fullbacks high". So silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 All the problems of the narrow formation being magnified by Arteta's Arsenal. Arteta probably trotted out and wondered what they were doing playing the same dumb formation that Palace tore apart. The narrow formation with only 3 midfielders just played over the top to the other side for an easy 1v1 or 2v1 overload against a beleaguered Cash and Digne. Shocking, shocking, shocking. Don't have the words to describe such continuously poor tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skarroki Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Chris Sutton and Martin Keown calling out our terrible tactics and explaining how we could play better. And they actually sound more intelligent than the man in charge of our club, they don't sound like someone's pumped football cliches into an AI machine like they normally do. Get me out of this timeline. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sne Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Hard to imagine there are 2 players out there less suited than McGinn & Ramsey to the roles Gerrard is asking them to do in this system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keener window-cleaner Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 It's just completely baffling that they persist with this stupid formation, we give up the flanks and the opponents constantly takes advantage of that. even when the opponents manager said they expliot it, we persist with the christmas tree formation where we give up the flanks. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HalfTimePost Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 What shape and tactics? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a m ole Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 You just need to look at the change in Newcastle, by getting a competent manager and making 2 or 3 decent signings they went from looking absolutely horrendous to suddenly a functional side looking very much on the up in not very long at all. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
7392craig Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 There’s nothing wrong with the players. This squad could flourish with some half decent coaching. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keener window-cleaner Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 We looked much more well balanced when we switched to a 4-4-2, if Gerrard stays I hope we continue playing that formation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Still no team shape or coherent plan. A complete mess out on the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Martinez Cash-Chambers-Mings-Digne Luiz-Kamara Bailey-Buendia-Coutinho Watkins There is a team there if you can play them correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djdabush Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 It can't be a coincidence that yet again the 4 worst players on the pitch are the 2 full backs and the 2 central midfielders. His narrow formations just don't work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 I think we were better organised today. Team seemed to give a big shift. I think Leicester and Southampton games are the key ones. We get a win or more from next 3 games I'd say Gerrard keeps job until WC 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted August 31, 2022 Share Posted August 31, 2022 Scoreline really flattered. We were getting pumped until Arsenal decided to save themselves for the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts