Team shape, tactics and personnel

[sparrow1988]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

So why did Conte, go in to Spurs and threaten to go, because of a lack of funds, and when he got them, the tide turned.

Managers, can only do so much....but its convenient on the back of such limited behind the scenes information, to just blame them......I seem to remember, my stance being used for the previous manager, how times change.

I hear noises saying we have spent a lot......not this summer, we haven't, that is a false narrative....we have spent relatively, very little, so far, in comparison, with the rest.

Did Kamara come in knowing he was going to be the only first team signing, with Carlos?

Its a shitshow right now, but its all aimed at one man.....and I think that is unfair.

Conte has a very clear and defined plan which he uses at every club, and in any case, the results improved immediately before any transfer window. If a club wants to employ him then they need to be prepared to bring in the players to enable him to play the way he wants. If I was in charge and Conte was here, I would say "what players do you want and how many?"and I would go and get them or do my very best. However, he has used players that weren't playing much of a role for previous managers beacuse they suit his style. Can you say what Gerrard's plan is and what players he needs to execute this plan?

Goals scored by a team managed by Conte follow a pattern. Our goals are random, with no discernible pattern in how they are scored. City's goals all follow a pattern - patiently look for an opening, ball to the byline, cut-back, bang. Liverpool - high press create a bit of chaos in the defence and take advantage. West Ham - play for a set-piece and get the big lads up, or even soak up the pressure and use Bowen's/Antonio's (not so much now as he is older) pace on the counter. Brighton have a clear plan and build-up pattern to create chances- they just don't score enough of them.

It is a shitshow, but when the manager keeps making decisions to worsen the shitshow then it's difficult not to direct the bulk of the criticism towards him. The Ramsey for Luiz sub at the weekend was a tactical change worthy of Tactics Tim Sherwood at the weekend. What was his thinking there?

'Ok, we finally have some control in midfield this season, I know what I'll do, I'll switch to the midfield that has been a disaster thus far and leave on the man who struggled in midweek against a League One side'. Just baffling.

He somehow manages to set up the team with the plan of packing the midfield (2 holding side midfielders with a deeper central midfielder), yet when the opposition break, Kamara is left with an ocean of space to defend (was better at the weekend). The same issue as there was with Luiz last season, still he insists on playing Ramsey and McGinn together. We have a toothless attack. Nevertheless, we have players who can create and score. Buendia at Norwich (one of the worst teams in the PL and still manage to create chances), Ings, Watkins, Coutinho (in a system which compensates for the fact that he can't run anymore would still be useful), we are seeing recently what Bailey is capable of. That all points to a systematic problem in both attack and defence. I mean, wtf is the system in this picture below dispayed by the players' average positions?

 

For comparisons here are the average positions of the Tottenham players under Conte.

 

Look at how much more compact and organised they are as opposed to our "setup". It's worlds apart, and it is not just down to the players. If it is, then why does he keep playing the same players over and over and over? The biggest problem with this our shape and tactics is Gerrard's insistence on this "system" - if one could call it that. Although, I'm not sure he knows how to communicate how he wants the system to look like, which is another issue. Maybe the years of media training to provide the blandest possible answers to interviews has produced a person with no communication skills, which would be another massive obstacle to him becoming a competent manager/head coach.

Our most important signing this season is not going to be a CB, DM, Winger or Striker, it's going to be a manager. FWIW, I hope that I am wrong and that Gerrard does somehow become a great tactician, with great man management and communication skills, and that this happens sharpish. I don't think it will though.

[skarroki]

4231 for the players we have at the club. 343 or 3412 or 3421 if we had more CBs on the books too would work. 

This system doesn't work with these players. I'm not expecting more than top 10, we should have got that the last 2 seasons as well. 

I'm sorry to say that in this scenario, there is no nuance, there is no over-arching concoction of issues that all feed into the current problems. It's just literally our tactics that are wrong now. We have great owners, great board, huge fanbase, plans for the future in terms of youth set-up and the training pitches and ground. Everything is pulling in the right direction and the recruitment of first team players has also been really good on the whole.

Just put them in a formation that works FFS. 

[HalfTimePost]

 

[The Fun Factory]

This is an interesting thread because at the moment I don't we have 2 of the 3 things being discussed.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

[skarroki]

36 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Archer translates to "he's on his way out and if we can't announce it before the game we'll pretend he's injured 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

Yes it might nullify Bailey's " cutting in from the right " however there is no reason they can't roam and interchange.

Might also help him putting crosses and passes in from the left on his natural foot.

It's kind of true, while we don't have the strongest squad, we definitely have more than enough to run teams ragged if we set up right.

Note: Brilliant squad selector tool on UTV Pod website.

Edited August 30, 2022 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[PussEKatt]

49 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

It does not matter how bad an injury Coutinho has,Im sure he will start in midweek.

Archer should go out on loan for another season.He had 30 seconds on Sunday and did nothing.

[DJBOB]

18 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Yes it might nullify Bailey's " cutting in from the right " however there is no reason they can't roam and interchange.

Might also help him putting crosses and passes in from the left on his natural foot.

It's kind of true, while we don't have the strongest squad, we definitely have more than enough to run teams ragged if we set up right.

Note: Brilliant squad selector tool on UTV Pod website.

Would back this side to give teams problems and just switch Buendia and Bailey to allow for the fullbacks to overlap more naturally. Don't think Digne is going to get much service overlapping a left-footed Bailey. Can even interchange McGinn and Ramsay as I think McGinn's arse-shielding is more effective when he's running down the channels and plays as a quasi CF (similar to Scotland) to hold the ball up and either play it back or turn his man unexpectedly. He used to do that by the right byline in the championship before he was relegated to playing right back.

Edited August 30, 2022 by DJBOB

[MaVilla]

6 minutes ago, tomsky_11 said:

Seen a lot of negativity towards this this week, from radio phone ins post Sunday game, to twitter, to ex pros on radio, to VT.

Where does our record of 20 points from 13 league games when starting both fit with this negativity, and the 18 points from 18 games where we've only started one of them, seeing as this what various people unhappy with us playing both want to see?

 

all that says is our tactics and system is s***.

nobody plays 4312 any more, the fact we do and do ok-ish at times with it, just shows its the best of a current tactical ineptitude overall.

we could play 424 or 334 and possibly do better than we are now, but that doesnt make that optimal, it just means its doing better than the other rubbish system(s) we are playing etc.

[tomsky_11]

16 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

all that says is our tactics and system is s***.

nobody plays 4312 any more, the fact we do and do ok-ish at times with it, just shows its the best of a current tactical ineptitude overall.

we could play 424 or 334 and possibly do better than we are now, but that doesnt make that optimal, it just means its doing better than the other rubbish system(s) we are playing etc.

Sure you could say hypothetically that there is another set up with these players that might work better than anything Gerrard has tried. But we don't have the evidence for that, and that's not the point I'm raising based on what I've heard from others.

I've specifically heard the point raised mulitple times in last couple of days off the back of the West Ham game that "we shouldn't be playing Ings and Watkins together", "we should only play one striker" because it doesn't work and it leaves out two of Coutinho, Bailey and Buendia, the assumption being I guess that we are a better, more succesful team playing only one up front. But purely looking at results return under Gerrard so far that's not the case.

[picicata]

1 hour ago, tomsky_11 said:

Seen a lot of negativity towards this this week, from radio phone ins post Sunday game, to twitter, to ex pros on radio, to VT.

Where does our record of 20 points from 13 league games when starting both fit with this negativity, and the 18 points from 18 games where we've only started one of them, seeing as this what various people unhappy with us playing both want to see?

 

The thing with playing two up top is that it actually gives us a little bit more width as one of our strikers will nearly always drop wide to receive the ball, this allows us to use more of the pitch and stretch defenders about.

Of course we could just play with wingers but pretty certain that's unlikely too happen

 

And I've just realised this isn't in the right topic

 

Edited August 30, 2022 by picicata

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

10 minutes ago, ccfcman said:

It's the absence of tactics that is most worrying. The only thing that's clear is our lack of width. We're not disciplined enough to work that formation effectively. The patterns aren't there, the manager doesn't know his best 11 and rarely seems to effect the game. We're like United under OGS - moments FC.

I think Lange and Purslow are trying to get this to hang on as long as possible, but they're steering us close to a relegation battle in the hopes of a few results. If he lasts to the World Cup I'll be amazed.

[MaVilla]

2 minutes ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

wow, i could come up with those tactics lol.

[Keyblade]

5 minutes ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

Is this real?

[MotoMkali]

11 minutes ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

See the issue here is he's game planned for 14 outfielders 

[VillaParkAvenue]

I like how the instruction for JJ is simply to ”dominate”.

[ccfcman]

8 hours ago, TRO said:

So why did Conte, go in to Spurs and threaten to go, because of a lack of funds, and when he got them, the tide turned.

Managers, can only do so much....but its convenient on the back of such limited behind the scenes information, to just blame them......I seem to remember, my stance being used for the previous manager, how times change.

I hear noises saying we have spent a lot......not this summer, we haven't, that is a false narrative....we have spent relatively, very little, so far, in comparison, with the rest.

Did Kamara come in knowing he was going to be the only first team signing, with Carlos?

Its a shitshow right now, but its all aimed at one man.....and I think that is unfair.

How do you rate the squad over all? It's better than the points tally right?

I personally took no notice of SG @ Rangers other than, they won the league. Fair dues though. It was really only upon him signing that it became clear to me that Mick Beale was the true architect of the SG footballing style. Now it's not down to Beale alone or Gerrard, but the tactical naivety and lack of structure feels like it is growing, not reducing over time.

The "no pre-season" reasoning behind the spluttering finish to last season is now gone. The authoritative stamp of one's own transfers has come and gone. Diego Carlos' absence isn't the reason our midfield is exposed or our attackers lacking service. It's a bit of a snowball at the moment.

 

[MaVilla]

Excellent piece here about how/why our current system isnt working, and possible solutions.

I agree with pretty much everything he said.

We are trying to play like Liverpool, without having the world class/high quality players to execute it, i have said this a few times.

I dont agree with his solution, although it is a fair solution to the problem, but i do defo agree with his assessment of why our system isnt working.

How Gerrard cant see the problem, i honestly, genuinely dont know.

 

 

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

Square peg, round hole if this is true - though I have my doubts as there are two contradictory parts to it (JJ dominate but PC start).

Again - I get it. This 235 or 325 is the same thing that Teuchel employs but you have to have the right personnel to do it. Are we going to really swap out the whole squad to try and make this work despite the results saying otherwise?

I think not, but maybe Purslow does.