The Midfield Three

[Indigo]

Leeds' midfield is a bit non-existent at the moment itself and funnily enough the criticism from their own fans over it - particularly without Phillips - mirrors what gets said on here. That game tonight was so end-to-end that it kind of highlights we aren't alone when it comes to that sort of thing.

Main worry for me going into that game is how horrendous we've been in terms of ball retention. My main issue with Barkley more than anything else is that he's been awful in possession, which is the one part of his game where if all else fails you'd expect a decent level from him at a minimum, and it's not exactly a specialty of McGinn's at the best of times. We've not shown a comfortability on the ball against teams recently that don't press half as much as Leeds do. We can get at them if we can find some rhythm again though because they're there to be got at.

Edited February 23, 2021 by Indigo

[OutByEaster?]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

I guess some could say Mings should have thrown himself at Maddison, for the first?......but why was Maddison where he was unattended....its hardly, new is it?

He ran off the back of Barkley who didn't follow him in. 

 

[WooJung]

29 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

He ran off the back of Barkley who didn't follow him in. 

 

Yep, but this is a collective team error for the goal. Barkley has to follow him. If he doesn't, you still have, in theory, two more lines of players to deal with him. Luiz should've been on him as soon as he realised Barkley couldn't be arsed, as he collected the ball in his area. Mings should have closed him down better, left him way too much space, reminded me of Greenwood's goal against us during project restart. 

[OutByEaster?]

4 minutes ago, WooJung said:

Yep, but this is a collective team error for the goal. Barkley has to follow him. If he doesn't, you still have, in theory, two more lines of players to deal with him. Luiz should've been on him as soon as he realised Barkley couldn't be arsed, as he collected the ball in his area. Mings should have closed him down better, left him way too much space, reminded me of Greenwood's goal against us during project restart. 

I don't think we do still have two more lines to deal with him because of how the move started.

Looking through it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1DQhK_qMA&t=43s

As the move starts, Maddison is goal side of Barkley and moving away from Luiz into space looking for the short pass. Luiz needs to decide whether to go with Maddison or come out to the player on the ball. With both Targett and McGinn upfield and the wrong side of play, he needs to engage the man with the ball or he'll have a clear run all the way to Tyrone Mings. I think he has to take that option.

 

Once Luiz decides to engage the man with the ball, it's vital that Barkley gets after Maddison - Elmohamady who is at the bottom of the shot can't do that as he needs to be looking at covering the long ball to Barnes. We can see Luiz in the picture above looking at Barkley to see if he's covering. At this point, Luiz can do a little better at closing the man down, but I think he's caught in two minds by Barkley's position.

Once the ball is played Luiz turns and starts to chase back. Barkley hasn't made up any ground on Maddison who is jogging into our half. Mings has come out slightly to the left as Targett is a long way upfied, this has brough Elmo inside slightly and created the space for Barnes. I don't think Elmo can do anything else, as leaving Vardy one-on-one is likely to lead to trouble.

 

When the ball reaches Barnes, neither Luiz or Barkley are in the picture and we're three-on-three. In the moment above, Maddison is looking around to check where Barkley is - I'd expect Barkley to be with him at this point and I think Maddison is expecting that too - as per the previous picture Maddison hasn't sprinted to this position, he's jogged.

 

When Maddison receives the ball, we can see that Luiz is running back from his position upfield but isn't going to get there in time to affect the play. Barkley is still ten yards off Maddison and at this point has pretty much given up on closing him down.

 

All of that leaves Maddison with too much space for the shot - you can make a case for Mings closing him down more but it's still a good goal - Luiz has made an effort to get into a covering position and gained some ground but can't affect play, Barkley didn't close and hasn't had any impact.

It's initially caused by us being out of shape where we've had McGinn join in with Targett and El Ghazi on the left - I think we have to allow him the freedom to do that - but when he does, it's vital that the other number eight (in this case Barkley) gets into a covering position - the six needs to cover the fullback and the eight covers the six. In the picture where Maddison is looking for Barkley, Barkley should be in touching distance of him and preferably goal side. If you're playing as an eight you can't get away with covering like a ten.

 

 

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

18 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't think we do still have two more lines to deal with him because of how the move started.

Looking through it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1DQhK_qMA&t=43s

As the move starts, Maddison is goal side of Barkley and moving away from Luiz into space looking for the short pass. Luiz needs to decide whether to go with Maddison or come out to the player on the ball. With both Targett and McGinn upfield and the wrong side of play, he needs to engage the man with the ball or he'll have a clear run all the way to Tyrone Mings. I think he has to take that option.

 

Once Luiz decides to engage the man with the ball, it's vital that Barkley gets after Maddison - Elmohamady who is at the bottom of the shot can't do that as he needs to be looking at covering the long ball to Barnes. We can see Luiz in the picture above looking at Barkley to see if he's covering. At this point, Luiz can do a little better at closing the man down, but I think he's caught in two minds by Barkley's position.

Once the ball is played Luiz turns and starts to chase back. Barkley hasn't made up any ground on Maddison who is jogging into our half. Mings has come out slightly to the left as Targett is a long way upfied, this has brough Elmo inside slightly and created the space for Barnes. I don't think Elmo can do anything else, as leaving Vardy one-on-one is likely to lead to trouble.

 

When the ball reaches Barnes, neither Luiz or Barkley are in the picture and we're three-on-three. In the moment above, Maddison is looking around to check where Barkley is - I'd expect Barkley to be with him at this point and I think Maddison is expecting that too - as per the previous picture Maddison hasn't sprinted to this position, he's jogged.

 

When Maddison receives the ball, we can see that Luiz is running back from his position upfield but isn't going to get there in time to affect the play. Barkley is still ten yards off Maddison and at this point has pretty much given up on closing him down.

 

All of that leaves Maddison with too much space for the shot - you can make a case for Mings closing him down more but it's still a good goal - Luiz has made an effort to get into a covering position and gained some ground but can't affect play, Barkley didn't close and hasn't had any impact.

It's initially caused by us being out of shape where we've had McGinn join in with Targett and El Ghazi on the left - I think we have to allow him the freedom to do that - but when he does, it's vital that the other number eight (in this case Barkley) gets into a covering position - the six needs to cover the fullback and the eight covers the six. In the picture where Maddison is looking for Barkley, Barkley should be in touching distance of him and preferably goal side. If you're playing as an eight you can't get away with covering like a ten.

 

 

 

It’s fine margins but you’ve clearly shown there how much Barkley is the problem.  All he had to do was run back. Not score a great goal, not show great skill and ability. Jus help the f**king team by running back 20 yards. 

He just has to be dropped and if he isn’t and we look wide open again. Smith has to answer some serious questions. 

edit: forgot to add that was a great post.  

Edited February 23, 2021 by Vive_La_Villa

[PaulC]

6 hours ago, TRO said:

Don't know, attitude.

We was rubbish in the first half against Leicester, and better in the second half....so if it was fitness, you would think it would be the other way around.

unless of course Leicester with their mid week game , was ok fitness wise in the first half and waned in the second half.

I suspect we stepped up and they sat back to protect a lead. 

[PaulC]

Yes great shows that Barkley couldn't be arsed chasing back. 

[KentVillan]

Great post @OutByEaster? - I watched it back half-speed, and there are a few things going on:

• McGinn has obviously left a huge hole by linking up on the left. I suppose this is part of his role, but perhaps against a team with Leicester's quality he should be holding the shape more if Barkley is playing as a 10? It's the main reason Luiz and Barkley look exposed as Leicester break.
• Luiz mostly does the right thing as the break starts, but he's jogging back at 0:37 when he probably should have sensed the danger. He starts sprinting around 0:40 (as does Barkley!), but by that point it's too late.
• Should Mings be as deep as he is at 0:41? What's the danger in stepping out to Maddison sooner? Very harsh to blame him for this goal, but IMO he makes it a bit easier for Maddison than it needs to be.
• It's a superb, inch perfect finish by Maddison.

So yes, I think Barkley could have done more, but I'm not sure he's totally to blame for that one. Certain teams (Leicester and Southampton spring to mind) just seem to have this knack of catching us out like this when we over commit down one of the flanks. It's happened a few times over the past two seasons.

[AVFCDAN]

Would any of our midfield 3 get into any team currently  in the top 8, for me the answer is definitely no.

If we want to be a midtable team that's ok but its frustrating that we have flirted with more this season but unfortunately the ceiling for all of those players is not top 8 material. That's why its becoming increasingly annoying that Dean plays them without fail every week..

Its anyone's guess if Nakamba or Sanson will improve us but its hard to imagine how they could make us any worse at the moment.

[Bazmonkey]

13 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

I don't think we do still have two more lines to deal with him because of how the move started.

Looking through it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa1DQhK_qMA&t=43s

As the move starts, Maddison is goal side of Barkley and moving away from Luiz into space looking for the short pass. Luiz needs to decide whether to go with Maddison or come out to the player on the ball. With both Targett and McGinn upfield and the wrong side of play, he needs to engage the man with the ball or he'll have a clear run all the way to Tyrone Mings. I think he has to take that option.

 

Once Luiz decides to engage the man with the ball, it's vital that Barkley gets after Maddison - Elmohamady who is at the bottom of the shot can't do that as he needs to be looking at covering the long ball to Barnes. We can see Luiz in the picture above looking at Barkley to see if he's covering. At this point, Luiz can do a little better at closing the man down, but I think he's caught in two minds by Barkley's position.

Once the ball is played Luiz turns and starts to chase back. Barkley hasn't made up any ground on Maddison who is jogging into our half. Mings has come out slightly to the left as Targett is a long way upfied, this has brough Elmo inside slightly and created the space for Barnes. I don't think Elmo can do anything else, as leaving Vardy one-on-one is likely to lead to trouble.

 

When the ball reaches Barnes, neither Luiz or Barkley are in the picture and we're three-on-three. In the moment above, Maddison is looking around to check where Barkley is - I'd expect Barkley to be with him at this point and I think Maddison is expecting that too - as per the previous picture Maddison hasn't sprinted to this position, he's jogged.

 

When Maddison receives the ball, we can see that Luiz is running back from his position upfield but isn't going to get there in time to affect the play. Barkley is still ten yards off Maddison and at this point has pretty much given up on closing him down.

 

All of that leaves Maddison with too much space for the shot - you can make a case for Mings closing him down more but it's still a good goal - Luiz has made an effort to get into a covering position and gained some ground but can't affect play, Barkley didn't close and hasn't had any impact.

It's initially caused by us being out of shape where we've had McGinn join in with Targett and El Ghazi on the left - I think we have to allow him the freedom to do that - but when he does, it's vital that the other number eight (in this case Barkley) gets into a covering position - the six needs to cover the fullback and the eight covers the six. In the picture where Maddison is looking for Barkley, Barkley should be in touching distance of him and preferably goal side. If you're playing as an eight you can't get away with covering like a ten.

 

 

 

Great post...i love this kind of breakdown

From looking at each image its a catalogue of errors....starting from McGinn and Luiz being taken out of the game by one pass.

I agree with the points on here...Barkley should do better.

However, as I have stated before...the back line just retreat all the time...in case to the edge of the box and dont recognise the danger...... in Mings and Konsa should do better.  From the pictures you can clearly see they back off and only when there is a danger step forward very slightly...but by then Maddison has pulled the trigger.

Konsa is ball watching and because he has 'just retreated back' he has let Vardy go behind him.....his body shape is wrong to react...had he been more forward he may have got the second ball....but definitely would have gave Maddison something to think about.....with Mings...again to far back.

Its 3 v 3....the attacking three should have to do something specially to beat our 3 as its man for man....looking and watching that....we did nothing apart from make it easy for them....the initial pass from Barnes...the time and space for Maddison 

[jimmygreaves]

12 hours ago, PaulC said:

Yes great shows that Barkley couldn't be arsed chasing back. 

....and he's been doing this for weeks.

A bunch of goals may have been prevented if he just bothered to attempt to make it difficult for the opponent.

[nick76]

1 hour ago, AVFCDAN said:

Would any of our midfield 3 get into any team currently  in the top 8, for me the answer is definitely no.

If we want to be a midtable team that's ok but its frustrating that we have flirted with more this season but unfortunately the ceiling for all of those players is not top 8 material. That's why its becoming increasingly annoying that Dean plays them without fail every week..

Its anyone's guess if Nakamba or Sanson will improve us but its hard to imagine how they could make us any worse at the moment.

The problem is that we are well out of form at the moment.  These same players were playing when we were the better team in most of our games in the first half of the season and that includes some top teams.  We can’t dismiss that because we are out of form at the moment.

We have been worried all season that Man City would use their ~35m clause so he must be good.  McGinn was linked with Man Utd less than a year ago.  So these players are top 8 material without a doubt but unfortunately they are all out of form at the same time but were in form together earlier in the season.

Can we eventually buy better players? Of course we can, there’s no doubt about that but we shouldn’t dismiss them so easily on quality when they are eighth in the league with essentially two games in hand just because they are having a major dip in form over the last half dozen games.

Edited February 24, 2021 by nick76

[TRO]

15 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

He ran off the back of Barkley who didn't follow him in. 

 

For me that is the job of a Defensive midifielder, shared by Aaron Clark of Post match Pint.

[OutByEaster?]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

For me that is the job of a Defensive midifielder, shared by Aaron Clark of Post match Pint.

We were playing with a defensive midfielder - he was covering for the fullback who had gone forward. In that system you then rely on one of the number eights to provide cover for a runner from midfield.

I guess you could say that Luiz could have gone with Maddison, but it's not often you see a player turn his back on a man with the ball and run away from him - the right sided Leicester midfielder would then have had the whole pitch to run at and we'd have been relying on Ross Barkley to chase him down from a position a long way away from him.

The job of a defensive midfielder is to provide cover - that was happening. I don't know what else you're looking at. 

 

 

[Sulberto21]

1 hour ago, Bazmonkey said:

Great post...i love this kind of breakdown

From looking at each image its a catalogue of errors....starting from McGinn and Luiz being taken out of the game by one pass.

I agree with the points on here...Barkley should do better.

However, as I have stated before...the back line just retreat all the time...in case to the edge of the box and dont recognise the danger...... in Mings and Konsa should do better.  From the pictures you can clearly see they back off and only when there is a danger step forward very slightly...but by then Maddison has pulled the trigger.

Konsa is ball watching and because he has 'just retreated back' he has let Vardy go behind him.....his body shape is wrong to react...had he been more forward he may have got the second ball....but definitely would have gave Maddison something to think about.....with Mings...again to far back.

Its 3 v 3....the attacking three should have to do something specially to beat our 3 as its man for man....looking and watching that....we did nothing apart from make it easy for them....the initial pass from Barnes...the time and space for Maddison 

This is what I mean that Mings and our back line in general need to be a little bit more aggressive and engage sooner. 

[TRO]

10 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Great post @OutByEaster? - I watched it back half-speed, and there are a few things going on:

• McGinn has obviously left a huge hole by linking up on the left. I suppose this is part of his role, but perhaps against a team with Leicester's quality he should be holding the shape more if Barkley is playing as a 10? It's the main reason Luiz and Barkley look exposed as Leicester break.
• Luiz mostly does the right thing as the break starts, but he's jogging back at 0:37 when he probably should have sensed the danger. He starts sprinting around 0:40 (as does Barkley!), but by that point it's too late.
• Should Mings be as deep as he is at 0:41? What's the danger in stepping out to Maddison sooner? Very harsh to blame him for this goal, but IMO he makes it a bit easier for Maddison than it needs to be.
• It's a superb, inch perfect finish by Maddison.

So yes, I think Barkley could have done more, but I'm not sure he's totally to blame for that one. Certain teams (Leicester and Southampton spring to mind) just seem to have this knack of catching us out like this when we over commit down one of the flanks. It's happened a few times over the past two seasons.

That may well all be so.....But Maddison was left free to slide rule his shot, which was sublime.....The point is, none of the 2 defensive midfielders picked him up to disrupt his shot, he was unattended.

If you leave players of that calibre unattended in those positions, is it any wonder what the outcome will be.

You say of a No6 he probably should have sensed the danger...is that a euphemism for at fault and out of position.

Right now Barkley has become the convenient scapegoat, for much more that is wrong.

[PaulC]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

For me that is the job of a Defensive midifielder, shared by Aaron Clark of Post match Pint.

In this instance he couldn't and MCginn was too far forward so Barkley had to the tracking and if hes unwilling to do that he has no place in our team 

[sparrow1988]

14 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

When Maddison receives the ball, we can see that Luiz is running back from his position upfield but isn't going to get there in time to affect the play. Barkley is still ten yards off Maddison and at this point has pretty much given up on closing him down.

This is the most damning screenshot for Barkley IMO. Look at Luiz who is further away. His leading leg is outstretched, he's sprinting to get there. Ross' leg is straight, in no way is that a sprinting stance. The video in realtime actually looks worse.

[OutByEaster?]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

That may well all be so.....But Maddison was left free to slide rule his shot, which was sublime.....The point is, none of the 2 defensive midfielders picked him up to disrupt his shot, he was unattended.

...

Right now Barkley has become the convenient scapegoat, for much more that is wrong.

These statements don't fit together.

We were playing a no.6 and two no. 8's.

In the situation we're looking at Barkley is the midfielder who should have picked Maddison up - you're saying the problem is that Barkley didn't pick him up, but that we shouldn't blame Barkley for that?

 

[OxfordVillan]

10 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Great post @OutByEaster? - I watched it back half-speed, and there are a few things going on:

• McGinn has obviously left a huge hole by linking up on the left. I suppose this is part of his role, but perhaps against a team with Leicester's quality he should be holding the shape more if Barkley is playing as a 10? It's the main reason Luiz and Barkley look exposed as Leicester break.
• Luiz mostly does the right thing as the break starts, but he's jogging back at 0:37 when he probably should have sensed the danger. He starts sprinting around 0:40 (as does Barkley!), but by that point it's too late.
• Should Mings be as deep as he is at 0:41? What's the danger in stepping out to Maddison sooner? Very harsh to blame him for this goal, but IMO he makes it a bit easier for Maddison than it needs to be.
• It's a superb, inch perfect finish by Maddison.

So yes, I think Barkley could have done more, but I'm not sure he's totally to blame for that one. Certain teams (Leicester and Southampton spring to mind) just seem to have this knack of catching us out like this when we over commit down one of the flanks. It's happened a few times over the past two seasons.

For me we’ve approached certain games over confident, too arrogantly. I feel we’ve turned with the attitude that “you’re below us, we shall blow you away with our marauding football”. I suppose some of this is perhaps inevitable with the plaudits we were getting, we’ve bought into our hype. It’s a learning curve. But we’ve got to get back to the raw basics of hard work and discipline, players that are really earning the opportunity to play. We had two very decent performers pre-Covid outbreak at VP in Nakamba and ElGhazi, both of whom have been tossed aside in favour of others who really haven’t been at the races and deserved their starting place in the team. This is the premier league, teams that want to succeed cannot afford to wait 6,7, 8 or 9 games for players to find some form. You’ll get found out.