The Midfield Three

[PaulC]

I wonder if McGinn is the problem in that he is often caught upfield out of position leaving Luiz and the defence exposed. MCginn is not a holding midfield player, he would do a better job playing where Barkley is 

[Bazmonkey]

3 hours ago, AndyM3000 said:

So would I but it doesn't tell the whole story. We are still pretty low down on the table of expected goals conceded, only 5 teams have better defences based on that stat but we do have a couple of games in hand. Brighton had 26 shots against us and they should have won but their shot selection was very poor. I'm more concerned with the quality of chances we give our opponent than the amount, Liverpool don't let the other team have many shots but when they do it's usually a big chance of a goal.

The trend is heading in the wrong direct though as we were much better earlier in the season and have rode our luck more. The CM area needs a shake up for me with Barkely and McGinn taken out of it, without Jack we will have to play a more explosive/counter attack style. 

 

3 hours ago, andym said:

I remember looking at shots and goals against the other week, and since our Covid break the 'shots against' has got significantly worse.

First half of the season (and going back to the end of last season) we were generally really good at limiting chances against. Even that Southampton game, they pretty much scored every shot they had and that included two 25 yard freekicks, that doesn't happen often at all.

Last few weeks though, except against Newcastle and Arsenal, its been a shooting gallery in comparison. Goals conceded has still been ok, but that's mainly down to some excellent rear guard action by the back 4 and Emi.

The rest of the team (except Ollie upfront) seem to have lost a yard, and it's really impacting us on both sides of the ball. The biggest difference I noticed the first half of this season compared to most of last season is that we finally looked a fast team, that we could really compete physically in this league; for whatever reason that isn't the case, we now look laboured far too often. 

 

 

2 hours ago, Laughable Chimp said:

17.6 shots conceded per game after the covid break compared to 11.9 shots conceded per game before to be precise.

 

 

 

This is what I was trying to say earlier...the change since the break has been noticeable...be a shame to waist the good start with top 8 and possibly Europe in our grasp 

[Mjvilla]

8 minutes ago, Bazmonkey said:

 

 

This is what I was trying to say earlier...the change since the break has been noticeable...be a shame to waist the good start with top 8 and possibly Europe in our grasp 

What level do you coach at mate?

[Laughable Chimp]

Since someone mentioned xGA, I'd like to make a point on that as well. Because the change in form looking at this stat is even more startling.

Prior to the covid break we conceded the third least xGA with only City and Chelsea conceding less xGA with the same number of games. After the covid break, we conceded more xGA than anyone else per game aside from Spurs and Southampton.

In other words, if we assume xGA can be a measure for the quality of our defence. We went from the third best defence in the league to the third worst. That change is staggering.

[gwi1890]

3 hours ago, PaulC said:

I wonder if McGinn is the problem in that he is often caught upfield out of position leaving Luiz and the defence exposed. MCginn is not a holding midfield player, he would do a better job playing where Barkley is 

I don’t think he’s the problem he’s playing deeper yes but he’s the more advanced of the 2 , Im not a fan o Mcginn further up the field as he’s wasteful in front of goal Barkley not pressing in front of him is the problem the press should start with Barkley 

Edited February 22, 2021 by gwi1890

[Bazmonkey]

2 hours ago, Mjvilla said:

What level do you coach at mate?

I currently coach three teams u10's and two u18's for a non league club in Birmingham 

I'm also a scout u16's for a championship team....video analyst/first team scout for a league 2 side.

I get to see alot of football which is great...but I cant watch a game with analysing it bit by bit

[CVByrne]

3 hours ago, Bazmonkey said:

 

 

This is what I was trying to say earlier...the change since the break has been noticeable...be a shame to waist the good start with top 8 and possibly Europe in our grasp 

Well Barkley came back from injury at the same time and has been badly out of form. Add to that teams are adapting and setting up specifically to counter us. The combination of the two means our midfield are not performing as effectively as they were in first half of season. 

I'd go with Sanson, McGinn & Luiz/Nakamba for Leeds, there's energy there if McGinn is playing in Barkleys position as he'll do far more off the ball. 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, Bazmonkey said:

I currently coach three teams u10's and two u18's for a non league club in Birmingham 

I'm also a scout u16's for a championship team....video analyst/first team scout for a league 2 side.

I get to see alot of football which is great...but I cant watch a game with analysing it bit by bit

When do you sleep?

[TRO]

21 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Last season we beat Arsenal 1-0 with Luiz at 6 and McGinn and Hourihane in front of him. He was class in that game.

There are countless other results over the last year where Luiz has played lone DM and handled himself fine.

He apparently doesn’t win one on ones, and yet today I saw Maddison floored for several minutes after a strong (fair) tackle from Luiz on the edge of our box. I watch him closely every game, and while he definitely isn’t on peak form at the moment, I don’t see him (or the lack of a Nakamba type player)as the key problem at all.

What is exposing him and McGinn is a completely unfit 10 playing in front of them, making it too easy for oppo to play the ball through the middle.

Did anyone else hear someone screaming at “Roscoe” to close someone down today and he just jogged half arsed as the ball was played around him?

You’re fk’d as a DM in that situation because if you press behind the lazy player you just leave space behind you, and if you sit you invite pressure. We’re doing the latter at the moment - ball gets played around Barkley and then Dougie and SJM just sit and wait in front of the defence as oppo charge into the attacking third.

I’m still not really sure what will fix this without some serious improvements in fitness and form. But for now I would probably go with Sanson in for Barkley and have two 8s (SJM & Sanson) shuttling either side of Dougie. With Ramsey getting 30 mins second half.

I think a lot of Dougie’s perceived weaknesses will disappear with two active 8s in front of him, and SJM is more comfortable in that role anyway.

I am in no way defending Barkley, right now ,he is poor, but it wasn't so long ago he was being revered by our fans.....he is playing poor, lacks the sharpness of when he first arrived, but to blame him soley on the performances of the 2 Players playing the DM role, is wrong, its misleading.

Matt Targett admitted we was poor, particularly in the first half and claimed, we lacked aggression and never got a tackle in, his words not mine....I just happen to agree with him.....to claim one tackle as reason to promote a point is desperate.

Dougie and McGinn are not playing well enough, in those roles, i don't care what folk say, and its anyones guess why.....you may claim, they have played well in the past, thats your call, but right now, they are not.

and while, i am at it, Dean Smith defends Ross Barkley against his recent criticism, so not sure where you go with that, either.

While i do see the form of Barkley as an issue, i equally see the form of McGinn and Luiz as an issue too.

our midfield is a real concern imv.

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

8 hours ago, PaulC said:

I wonder if McGinn is the problem in that he is often caught upfield out of position leaving Luiz and the defence exposed. MCginn is not a holding midfield player, he would do a better job playing where Barkley is 

He is playing where his instinct takes him.

[TRO]

21 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

Well I'm sure he will at some point, don't worry.

Not that Smith signs the players anyway but if we want to pretend he does, he was busy signing a keeper, right back, number 10, right winger and striker to improve us this summer. They mostly all have and the one that hasn't will be sent packing in May anyway.

I will be pleased, if you are right.

[PaulC]

14 minutes ago, TRO said:

He is playing where his instinct takes him.

No discipline then 

[MaVilla]

Assuming our current squad (subject to summer signings), i honestly think on current form/potential/midfield balance, our best midfield 3 is probably:

Sanson - Luiz - McGinn, or

Sanson - Luiz - Ramsey, or

Ramsey - Luiz - McGinn.

(aka: a variation of Luiz, McGinn, Sanson & Ramsey)

I honestly think Barkley just imbalances our midfield too much.

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, PaulC said:

No discipline then 

Not saying the implications, just saying what i think....I think he drifts in to his natural habitat.....maybe he is playing to orders.

[PaulC]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Not saying the implications, just saying what i think....I think he drifts in to his natural habitat.....maybe he is playing to orders.

Would seem strange if he is. I think the position he plays he needs to play with more discipline. Luiz is left stranded a lot of the time

[TRO]

4 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

Assuming our current squad (subject to summer signings), i honestly think on current form/potential/midfield balance, our best midfield 3 is probably:

Sanson - Luiz - McGinn, or

Sanson - Luiz - Ramsey, or

Ramsey - Luiz - McGinn.

(aka: a variation of Luiz, McGinn, Sanson & Ramsey)

I honestly think Barkley just imbalances our midfield too much.

My interpretation of that is too much emphasis on attacking midfield and not enough instinct to defensive midfield.....all too samey for me.

[PaulC]

I also think pressing starts at the front and whilst Watkins does an excellent job at that, neither El Ghazi or Traore do. 

[TRO]

1 minute ago, PaulC said:

Would seem strange if he is. I think the position he plays he needs to play with more discipline. Luiz is left stranded a lot of the time

It depends what instructions they are given, but I don't see enough aggression from either of them....i see shadowing and marshalling, but no where near enough aggression....i don't mean just clumsy attempts that attract yellow cards...i mean solid tackles and winning the ball, with desire and craft....I mean worrying the opposition with their aggression.

[PaulC]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

It depends what instructions they are given, but I don't see enough aggression from either of them....i see shadowing and marshalling, but no where near enough aggression....i don't mean just clumsy attempts that attract yellow cards...i mean solid tackles and winning the ball, with desire and craft....I mean worrying the opposition with their aggression.

Quite true but I dont theres not enough physicality in our team. Watkins gives us some. we have it at the back but we dont have it in midfield or in the attacking wide positions. Compare Harvey Barnes to what we have. 

[TRO]

1 minute ago, PaulC said:

I also think pressing starts at the front and whilst Watkins does an excellent job at that, neither El Ghazi or Traore do. 

When you look at how many attributes a team needs to give another team a game, its only then, we can be sure we are ok or not.

We have to limit our weaknesses.....e.g if we are weak in the air, teams will exploit it....if we lack pace, teams will exploit it.

The squad needs players with varying attributes, to pick a side for the occasion.

Thats why our biggest challenge is not having too many players the same, we need a better blend.

i think our midfield is too much the same.