The Midfield Three

[Zatman]

Is it 5 goals from centre midfield all season, this is the problem. Wingers get most of the criticism but this is problem for me. They dont ever look like scoring either 

Not asking for Lampard numbers but should really be on 10 or 12 by now between them

[The Fun Factory]

Just now, Zatman said:

Is it 5 goals from centre midfield all season, this is the problem. Wingers get most of the criticism but this is problem for me. They dont ever look like scoring either 

Not asking for Lampard numbers but should really be on 10 or 12 by now between them

Yes totally agree mate. McGinn and Barkley 4 four goals between is not good enough.

[lexicon]

37 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

Yes totally agree mate. McGinn and Barkley 4 four goals between is not good enough.

This, really - they're supposed to be the attacking options out of centre mid. McGinn has one goal in 27 games.

[TRO]

6 hours ago, lexicon said:

This, really - they're supposed to be the attacking options out of centre mid. McGinn has one goal in 27 games.

Correct me if I am wrong, but in a 4-2-3-1 isn't McGinn one of the 2

so for me he is playing CDM or CM.

I happen to think he should be further forward, but thats my understanding above....In which case his focus is less on attacking.

[OutByEaster?]

23 minutes ago, TRO said:

Correct me if I am wrong, but in a 4-2-3-1 isn't McGinn one of the 2

He had been for the first half of the season, when Barkley was playing or when Grealish was central, but since Sanson has come into the team he's had more licence to get forward with the formation changing to more of a 4-1-4-1 (or 4-1-2-3 depending on your perspective). 

[Zatman]

An absolute disgrace again

[PaulC]

Midfield two Ramsey and McgInn. Wouldnt pick Luiz again this season 

[MaVilla]

Personally i think we need to go back to 4231, the 433 just seems to leave us either permanently exposed at the back or permanently not having enough support up front!

 

 

[Delphinho123]

1 hour ago, PaulC said:

Midfield two Ramsey and McgInn. Wouldnt pick Luiz again this season 

I’m afraid I think you’re right. Luiz has had a poor season. 

He had a decent spell towards the back end of last season but one could argue this was against sides who were either unfit, on the beach, recovering from Covid, or whatever after that break. 

I honestly thought he’d be great this season but he’s been mostly rubbish I’m afraid. 

No way City come in for him in the summer and if they did, I’d bite their hands off if they offer 20m+.

[ferguson1]

This is a difficult one at present due to fitness and form.  Luiz has been frustrating for a couple of months now and Barkley is so out of sorts. Sanson needs time to gut use to the pace of the game here and short appearances from the bench are probably best.

Against Liverpool I think I’d start the following:

                                       Nakamba

                  Ramsey                             McGinn

[Villa87]

17 minutes ago, ferguson1 said:

This is a difficult one at present due to fitness and form.  Luiz has been frustrating for a couple of months now and Barkley is so out of sorts. Sanson needs time to gut use to the pace of the game here and short appearances from the bench are probably best.

Against Liverpool I think I’d start the following:

                                       Nakamba

                  Ramsey                             McGinn

If we keep the same formation I would as well. I would like Davis to start. Not sure how we would shape up to include him?

[Dave-R]

On 24/03/2021 at 11:34, Zatman said:

Is it 5 goals from centre midfield all season, this is the problem. Wingers get most of the criticism but this is problem for me. They dont ever look like scoring either 

Not asking for Lampard numbers but should really be on 10 or 12 by now between them

Since Covid it's been Midfield and Wingers and no one can deny that.

Keeper and defence is fine but if we had a working midfield and a set of wingers who worked, we would at least feel like we have more control of games and the keeper and defence would be less worked. We have lost control in those areas and for what ever reason I think our players have burnt out, along  with showing signs they need to be rotated more. I'd also like to stress that we have some players who are just not good enough for a place in a starting eleven, we know who they are so don't think any need for names. The next window will hopefully bring us a couple of real class acts who will without a doubt do what we are at the moment wishing for from midfield and Wingers.

We certainly can't go on in the summer and not add firepower to the team I think an attacking midfielder and two Wingers would be spot on.

[MarkLillis]

They all seem a little lost without Jack. 

Theres no decisions being made in there they just pass the buck until its intercepted.

For me the best midfield we have put out since Jack was injured is Marvelous,Ramsey and McGinn.

I'd start that against Liverpool.

[Rich192]

I agree, although might be harsh to chuck Ramsey in on that. Nakamba definitely deserves a run in the team, especially given the opposition we have coming up. 

[WooJung]

If Jack comes back I think there might be a good case, considering Trez's impact and assuming that warrants him a starting place for at least a couple of games, to go with:

Luiz McGinn

Traore Jack Trez

Watkins

 

Based on current form and  opposition there is a strong case to bring on Nakamba for Luiz. 

Let me address the "Jack is better on the left" argument on advance. 

He does. Thing is, as a 10 he has the freedom to roam to the left and combine with Trez, creating numerical superioriority on that flank, much like Barkley used to do to combine with jack early on in the season. 

He can also drift to the right and combine with Traore and some tasty stuff could come out as a result, especially with Trez making runs at that back post. 

It was also working very well when Ghazi was having that great streak in december. 

Before his injury Jack was finding it harder to be effective given how much teams defended their right side, so this switch could also address that difficulty. 

[VillanousOne]

3 minutes ago, WooJung said:

If Jack comes back I think there might be a good case, considering Trez's impact and assuming that warrants him a starting place for at least a couple of games, to go with:

Luiz McGinn

Traore Jack Trez

Watkins

 

Based on current form and  opposition there is a strong case to bring on Nakamba for Luiz. 

Let me address the "Jack is better on the left" argument on advance. 

He does. Thing is, as a 10 he has the freedom to roam to the left and combine with Trez, creating numerical superioriority on that flank, much like Barkley used to do to combine with jack early on in the season. 

He can also drift to the right and combine with Traore and some tasty stuff could come out as a result, especially with Trez making runs at that back post. 

It was also working very well when Ghazi was having that great streak in december. 

Before his injury Jack was finding it harder to be effective given how much teams defended their right side, so this switch could also address that difficulty. 

Trouble is Jack is 

a) Hooked on blow
b) Hooked on pain killers
c) The club have had a bid accepted and he won't play for us again
d) His injury is so bad he won't play again for us this season
e) Crocked by Engel's massive tackle (oooh er)

one, all, or none of the above
 

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

I still like the idea of trying Nakamba sitting, with Doug and McGinn further forward.

[ozvillafan]

33 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I still like the idea of trying Nakamba sitting, with Doug and McGinn further forward.

Nah. Nakamba would be too easy to dribble around. I'd go for Nakamba standing.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

18 minutes ago, ozvillafan said:

Nah. Nakamba would be too easy to dribble around. I'd go for Nakamba standing.

[Philosopher]

I think there are a few issues with midfield. The first is a lack of continuity. There has been so much chopping and changing with the midfield 3 in terms of both formation and personnel. This definitely hasn't helped. The problem since Barkley's injury Smith no longer knows what his best 3 is or even the best shape of his 3. 

The second problem is Barkley has shown himself to be an overrated average player. Sorry but even when things were going well I never thought he was that good. His touch is somewhat wayward, his passing is somewhat wayward, and his tackling and pressing is terrible.

The third problem is he has 3 new players in that midfield area this season in Sanson, Ramsey, and Barkley and they're all quite similar, but slightly different. One is the future, one is a big reputation, and the other is a new signing. It's a bit of a dilemma.

Next problem is Dougie. He isn't the strongest or most aggressive defensive midfielder, and teams have realised he can be bullied.

5th problem Mcginn! Good reliable, versatile player being played in 3 different ways with a bunch of different midfield teammates. He's not really a Defensive midfielder, and neither is he a number 10. Mcginn created nothing as a no 10 yesterday. We didn't even register a shot on target until Trez scored and Mcginn had been moved to defensive midfield. Mcginn is a good number 8, that can be errant with his short passing in particular. The short passing of the team is poor, I'm not sure if this is down to the technical ability of our players or the coaching they're receiving.

My solution in the short term is to drop Luiz, and Mcginn. Luiz because as a defensive midfielder he is getting bullied and his confidence is low. Mcginn because his short passing has been poor, and he too often looks for higher risk longer passes when a quick short pass to move the ball quickly is the better option. I'd put Nakamba in the holding role and Sanson and Ramsey as number 8's. (We only have 2 natural 10's, Jack and Barkley, so no 4-2-3-1).

Now the problem with my solution is that it won't work with the way we play. We have been playing a direct counter attacking system for the most part. Our defenders aren't good enough in possession to play out short. So they resort to hitting it long. The point of Luiz (as he is a better passer than Nakamba) is to act as the bridge (between midfield and defense) to help pass out, but teams are marking him. 

Problem is without Jack as a number 10 there isn't an effective solution. We don't have the technical ability in the centre of defense, or a quality passer at the base of our midfield to play short and pass out. In order for our aggressive direct counter attack to work we need 4 guys in advanced positions to be able to win and hold the ball with enough regularity. 

Because we look to move it forward so quickly we can't get our two 8s forward quickly enough to support a front 3 that has average players in. So having a number can compensate for that. But if your no 10 isn't good at holding the ball up, comfortable being man marked, and a good enough short passer to keep the ball and move it into dangerous positions then the ball is coming straight back at your defense.

Literally our defense being good at defending is the only reason we are in the top half of the table. It's not Jack and Oliie. Obviously they help us immensely, but our defense is what our entire tactical plan relies upon.

A change in tactics at this stage isn't going to help. So the only other thing I can come up with is go all in and play Mcginn and Nakamba or Luiz as two dynamic 6's and play two up top with Davis and Watkins, put Trez on either wing and one of the other 2 (I'd go with Traore) and go 4-4-2.

We definitely need a top class defensive midfielder in this summer and a top class right winger. The midfielders on our books are all good players. But we only have one specialist DM. We basically play Mourinho tactics, so I'm sure JT has had a very big influence on our tactics. 

We need a passing coach and an adaptation to our tactics in the medium term so we can play a bit shorter, enjoy more possession and give two 8's a better chance to get forward in support. I believe Konsa can be a lot better on the ball, that's the next thing to add to his game. Mings needs to move the ball quicker and we need a DM that will drop in a ping the ball about with accuracy.

The throw money at it solution is to sign two top class wingers and Olisie, plus a top class DM, and sell 2 or our 4 no 8's (Mcginn, Luiz, Ramsey and Sanson).

The problem at its core is the tactics not quite fitting the players we currently have available. Plus the other things like lack of regular picks, and playing in position that aren't players best position confounding things further.