The Midfield Three

[TRO]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think the answer is everyone. I accept that you'd like to see one or more midfielders specifically asked to tackle everything in sight, but I don't think that's the way the manager wants to play, he wants to steer people into areas and outnumber them.

In the way we play, the people who win the ball back through tackles are our fullbacks, Cash and Targett for example have made more tackles than Rice and Coufal at West Ham.

We should be expecting our wingers to track back - in this instance, El Ghazi, Targett and McGinn had all gone forward down the left hand side and were well beyond the point at which they could have got back - McGinn and Targett were headed back but had no chance to get near to play. When all three of those are forward, there is a big responsibility on both Luiz and Barkley to track back or stop an attack at source. Barkley makes no effort and Luiz tries to get to press the man on the ball believing he'll have cover. Madisson was Barkley's responsibility.

I'm not against us getting in a CDM in the summer and letting Luiz and McGinn occupy the two number eight positions - but at the moment, I think we'd be better off with three in the middle rather than two and a passenger.

 

First of all....thanks for a good reply, even if we don't fully agree.

Let me respond.

• If we are playing 4-1-4-1....I would accept that we are playing with 1 CDM ( even though I don't think he represents my understanding of having the essential attributes of one)..but I thought we was playing 4-2-3-1
• I rarely see us steering players in to area's and outnumber them....particularly lately, I see huge gaps between our players, rendering us easy to pick off and us hard to find each other.
• We had an instance against Brighton of too many committed to a forward position failed to win the ball and Wellbeck & co exploited it.....so what do we learn?....this is simply not the first example of being caught out of position....if we are going to lose the ball as regularly as we are lately the full backs cannot overlap or launch forward, no matter how adept that are at it.....first things first.
• I don't think Maddison should be Barkley's responsibility, even if the positioning of the incident complies with your thinking on that ocassion...if we are blaming Barkley for that, I think we are Barking up the wrong tree, thats just my view.
• If you are saying Barkley is making minimal effort in the role, he is there for....I would totally agree.....Right Now, he is pants, my concern is, he is getting blamed for somethings that are convenient.
• If McGinn and Targett was getting back, but had no chance to get near the play....That says to me, there is an issue there too, being out of position, is poor play in my book.
• If defenders see fit to bomb forward and in the time of need, expect Attacking players to swap roles and run back to cover, and get the blame, when this goes pear shaped, I would suggest we have an Organisational problem....That was not the Aston Villa who kept Man city under wraps for 80 odd minutes, until the mismanagement of the rules give them their edge.
• Finally, I agree with you last line implicitily, but may I cheekily suggest, if you think that a Specialist CDM in the summer would be a good move, maybe, just maybe, I have a point.

Look, I get Dean has a bit of a passive style to his vision of the game....but he has come out and said " we have to win the right to play football" which suggests to me ,he does see, what I see....I don't know, if I am totally comfortable, with every player expected to win the ball, I think that is wishful thinking....players by nature have tendencies....Jacks is to dribble, Conor's was to hit dead Balls etc.....I think ball winning has to be in your sychy...its requires a bit of aggression, not all players have that... maybe the best teams have more players that do.

I thought it was interesting that you say our best ball winners are the ful backs....They are.....but is that suggesting we are winning the ball too deep and the attacks become predictable and enable the opposition time to regroup.....should we be turning the ball over further upfield, to launch attacks?

It is clear, right now some players are working hard and some are not....we have to sort it out.

 

Edited February 24, 2021 by TRO

[TRO]

42 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Can't you see that Luiz is covering Targett on the left (when he picks up Tielemans) and then you're expecting him to also pick up Maddison who is in the space left by McGinn?

What superhuman CDM are you aware of who can cover that area of pitch?

So why is he having to cover Targett, when we are in a defensive situation....surely before the game kicks off...Maddison should be his man.

Can't you see, That you cannot launch Full backs forward, if there is no adequate provision to defend...Luiz should'nt have to decide.

basically, you seem to be suggesting the attackers do the defensive job and the defence does the attacking job.....it was a great knock, from Targett to score our goal, but ideally shouldn't ElGhazi be doing that and Targett further back covering.

If Leicester are creating an overload with Tielemans and Maddison in preditory postions....some of our players are picking up nobody...or are too far out of position, which is not the first time, is it.....Brighton at home ring any bells.

Edited February 24, 2021 by TRO

[OutByEaster?]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

 

• Finally, I agree with you last line implicitly, but may I cheekily suggest, if you think that a Specialist CDM in the summer would be a good move, maybe, just maybe, I have a point.

You do! I'm not against a specialist CDM - at the moment though we have two players who are quite capable of playing the pivot but need support in front of them. We have two chunks of a good midfield. 

The balance is wrong - if we had two defensive cloggers in there, we'd be more limited but Barkley would be free to play - as things stand, he's got to do the work too, he's got to earn the right to play. He's not doing that and in fact I don't think he can do that, I don't think it's in him. I don't think Barkley can play in our midfield and in order to accommodate him, we'd need to buy two specialist CDM's.

What we can do though is play perfectly well with three midfielders all working hard, supporting each other and providing support to the front three - we have two good midfielders who can do that already playing in Luiz and McGinn and possibly a third in Sanson or Ramsey, but to play Barkley and especially in the role he's playing, we'd need to change pretty much everything else in the team - he's an anomaly, he doesn't belong in this system and worse, when we ask him to adjust, we just his expose his weaknesses, over and over again - he's not helping us and we're not helping him,

Quote

I thought it was interesting that you say our best ball winners are the ful backs....They are.....but is that suggesting we are winning the ball too deep and the attacks become predictable and enable the opposition time to regroup.....should we be turning the ball over further upfield, to launch attacks?

I don't think it necessarily suggests we're winning the ball too deep, they're often ahead of the midfield. I think it might suggest that teams attack us down the flanks more than down the middle, in which case it could suggest that either teams want to avoid the middle or we're forcing them out wide, I don't know - I don't think number of tackles is necessarily the best indicator of a teams tactics.

Quote

It is clear, right now some players are working hard and some are not....we have to sort it out.

Absolutely - and for us, the front line of our midfield Grealish - Barkely - Traore are a luxury that we can't afford - despite the hard work elsewhere, I don't think the team can support all three of those at the same time.

 

[TRO]

18 minutes ago, Bazmonkey said:

Luiz is covering Targett and thats the problem.

That should be Mings' job as everyone should shuffle across.

Mings is too deep and this means Luiz has to do it...leaving Maddison free in the middle.....Luiz would have been able to be goal side if Mings was in the correct position.

Too Centre halves are too deep...creating the space for leiceter to play in.

CDM....means Central...looking at the pictures above...its a catalogue of errors..... the fact one throw in takes four of our players out the game is more a concern....lack of communication and leadership.

We seem to have lost shape and bit of composure when it comes to defending in recent games.

That is a good explanation.

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

You do! I'm not against a specialist CDM - at the moment though we have two players who are quite capable of playing the pivot but need support in front of them. We have two chunks of a good midfield. 

The balance is wrong - if we had two defensive cloggers in there, we'd be more limited but Barkley would be free to play - as things stand, he's got to do the work too, he's got to earn the right to play. He's not doing that and in fact I don't think he can do that, I don't think it's in him. I don't think Barkley can play in our midfield and in order to accommodate him, we'd need to buy two specialist CDM's.

What we can do though is play perfectly well with three midfielders all working hard, supporting each other and providing support to the front three - we have two good midfielders who can do that already playing in Luiz and McGinn and possibly a third in Sanson or Ramsey, but to play Barkley and especially in the role he's playing, we'd need to change pretty much everything else in the team - he's an anomaly, he doesn't belong in this system and worse, when we ask him to adjust, we just his expose his weaknesses, over and over again - he's not helping us and we're not helping him,

I don't think it necessarily suggests we're winning the ball too deep, they're often ahead of the midfield. I think it might suggest that teams attack us down the flanks more than down the middle, in which case it could suggest that either teams want to avoid the middle or we're forcing them out wide, I don't know - I don't think number of tackles is necessarily the best indicator of a teams tactics.

Absolutely - and for us, the front line of our midfield Grealish - Barkely - Traore are a luxury that we can't afford - despite the hard work elsewhere, I don't think the team can support all three of those at the same time.

 

Now, what can I not agree with there....thats fine by me.

I think you make an excellent point we are asking Barkley to do what he can't do.

Edited February 24, 2021 by TRO

[MrBlack]

8 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

 

Absolutely - and for us, the front line of our midfield Grealish - Barkely - Traore are a luxury that we can't afford - despite the hard work elsewhere, I don't think the team can support all three of those at the same time.

 

I think Jack has been off the boil for a few games and wonder if his injury has been present for longer than we've known.  He has repeated form for playing through injury so wouldn't wouldn't a surprise.

 I think when Jack has been fully on fire, we'd get away with the three of them at the same time as Jack would attract so much attention that we'd not be so exposed.

Trying to think... when we had our good runs,  have any of them coincided with all 3 of those being in the team? Earlier in the season we were playing Trez, then Barkley was out. The few games since Barkley returned have been poor, but easily blamed on an unfit/out of form Ross (before we even consider tiredness in anyone else) and potential injury carrying Jack.  Maybe you have a point...?

Edited February 24, 2021 by MrBlack
Clarifying the point of my last paragraph

[KentVillan]

27 minutes ago, Bazmonkey said:

Luiz is covering Targett and thats the problem.

That should be Mings' job as everyone should shuffle across.

Mings is too deep and this means Luiz has to do it...leaving Maddison free in the middle.....Luiz would have been able to be goal side if Mings was in the correct position.

Too Centre halves are too deep...creating the space for leiceter to play in.

CDM....means Central...looking at the pictures above...its a catalogue of errors..... the fact one throw in takes four of our players out the game is more a concern....lack of communication and leadership.

We seem to have lost shape and bit of composure when it comes to defending in recent games.

Given how deep Mings is, and how out of position McGinn is, and how high Targett is... Luiz has made the right decision to go to Tielemans hasn’t he?

C means central yes, but (especially with 2 CDMs playing) they will occasionally have to go wide, as all central players do.

[KentVillan]

21 minutes ago, TRO said:

So why is he having to cover Targett, when we are in a defensive situation....surely before the game kicks off...Maddison should be his man.

Can't you see, That you cannot launch Full backs forward, if there is no adequate provision to defend...Luiz should'nt have to decide.

basically, you seem to be suggesting the attackers do the defensive job and the defence does the attacking job.....it was a great knock, from Targett to score our goal, but ideally shouldn't ElGhazi be doing that and Targett further back covering.

If Leicester are creating an overload with Tielemans and Maddison in preditory postions....some of our players are picking up nobody...or are too far out of position, which is not the first time, is it.....Brighton at home ring any bells.

Football is a fluid game. Everyone has defensive responsibilities and covering to do at different points in the game. Overlapping full backs have been a basic attacking concept for decades so yes, it’s always been the case that sometimes midfielders will have to cover full backs.

[Villa94]

id be giving nakamba, sanson and ramsey a go from the start againt leeds

[KentVillan]

I think actually we’re all agreed that the shape is the problem, but apportioning the blame to different players is the disagreement.

My view is that Luiz is the least to blame of the people who’ve been singled out for the Maddison goal, because he’s been given an impossible task on that play.

Edited February 24, 2021 by KentVillan

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Given how deep Mings is, and how out of position McGinn is, and how high Targett is... Luiz has made the right decision to go to Tielemans hasn’t he?

C means central yes, but (especially with 2 CDMs playing) they will occasionally have to go wide, as all central players do.

Under such circumstances, your point has validity...but he shouldn't be put in a position of having to decide...if he is putting his own reputation at risk, by covering players he shouldn't have to, at the risk of leaving players he is more responsible for, he has to talk to the coach.

IMV he should have picked up Maddison, (not during the incident, I am talking before the game,) he should have made maddison his man....in such circumstances that played out, his man ( imo )scored, so in terms of decision making, it couldn't have got much worse...i.e if he had not covered Target and challenged Maddison, they might not have scored....fine margins and decisions.

My advice to him would be...get your man under control first and worry about other things later.

 

[TRO]

6 minutes ago, Villa94 said:

id be giving nakamba, sanson and ramsey a go from the start againt leeds

Me too.fwiw

[Bazmonkey]

8 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Given how deep Mings is, and how out of position McGinn is, and how high Targett is... Luiz has made the right decision to go to Tielemans hasn’t he?

C means central yes, but (especially with 2 CDMs playing) they will occasionally have to go wide, as all central players do.

 

4 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

I think actually we’re all agreed that the shape is the problem, but apportioning the blame to different players is the disagreement.

My view is that Luiz is the least to blame of the people who’ve been singled out for the Maddison goal, because he’s been given an impossible task on that play.

Luiz did make the correct decision.

I see where you are coming from....so in that situation i would have gone to Tielemens too.

What makes it look bad is he effectively commits himself which allows Tielemens to pass over it him. BUT it only happens because the shape and positions of other players make it look like it does.

I agree CDM's should go wide...however...they shouldnt be behind any of the defenders in a defensive situation...going forward yes...as you get overlaps from the full backs....but when defending...CDM's should alwayd be in front of the back line...especially in this situation with the ball in the opposition half.

[OutByEaster?]

Looking at the numbers on tackles does make you appreciate how good Idrissa Gueye was - he made 144 tackles in the season we went down, 2nd in the league behind an absolutely peak Kante. For comparison, Guilbert lead us last season on 74. In three years with Everton Gueye was 1st, 2nd and 2nd again in terms of tackles with well over a hundred each time - he was very much unappreciated.

 

 

[OxfordVillan]

1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

Everyone was playing well pre-Covid!

Nakamba played well against a dog  Newcastle side. El Ghazi's best two games were West Brom () and Crystal Palace (). A penalty against Wolves and a tap in against Chelsea don't suddenly turn him into Cristiano Ronaldo.

I like AEG, and I'm not that fussed about whether he starts or not - he's a decent enough player who does make things happen in the final third. But the idea that dropping AEG and Nakamba is the reason for our recent loss of form is just classic VT "grass is greener" nonsense. Players always seem to become world class when they spend more than a couple of games on the bench.

Sanson has been signed on a perm for £16m. He's 26 and has played at the highest level (Europa League runner up + Champions League appearances). Surely he's the one who needs to start a game at some point.

I think you miss my point, ref Nakamba and AEG. I’m alluding to the environment that can be created when players who come in and do well get instantly dropped, the message that can send out to the rest of the squad. I’m not saying they’re better in the long run than those in the starting eleven, but players form can and does dip. You can only play well against what’s in front of you, Nakamba has faired pretty well in the games he’s been played in. It’s all well and good labelling certain opponents  but we’ve been beaten or failed to beat similar level teams to Newcastle et al when Nakamba hasn’t been played at all. Players are only as good as their last performance. ElGhazi had actually played himself into a bit of form after looking distinctly average. Barkley seems to start game after game despite being utter . I just worry about the message that can send. 

[TRO]

11 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Football is a fluid game. Everyone has defensive responsibilities and covering to do at different points in the game. Overlapping full backs have been a basic attacking concept for decades so yes, it’s always been the case that sometimes midfielders will have to cover full backs.

Yes, Liverpool do it....but in their pomp they had dominant players to cover them...we don't.....Man City do it, but they too, have players to win the ball back, if they lose it.

We did in the Saunderse era...Gidman,Swain and Gibson all did it well.....but we had a dominant Midfield then who could ALL win the ball if they lost it.

 

[KentVillan]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Yes, Liverpool do it....but in their pomp they had dominant players to cover them...we don't.....Man City do it, but they too, have players to win the ball back, if they lose it.

We did in the Saunderse era...Gidman,Swain and Gibson all did it well.....but we had a dominant Midfield then who could ALL win the ball if they lost it.

 

All teams at all levels of football do it.

[KentVillan]

6 minutes ago, OxfordVillan said:

I think you miss my point, ref Nakamba and AEG. I’m alluding to the environment that can be created when players who come in and do well get instantly dropped, the message that can send out to the rest of the squad. I’m not saying they’re better in the long run than those in the starting eleven, but players form can and does dip. You can only play well against what’s in front of you, Nakamba has faired pretty well in the games he’s been played in. It’s all well and good labelling certain opponents  but we’ve been beaten or failed to beat similar level teams to Newcastle et al when Nakamba hasn’t been played at all. Players are only as good as their last performance. ElGhazi had actually played himself into a bit of form after looking distinctly average. Barkley seems to start game after game despite being utter . I just worry about the message that can send. 

I agree with you that players should be rewarded for playing well. Nakamba can feel himself a bit unlucky, and AEG also.

What bothers me is the idea put forward by some on here that we have "the answer" sitting on the bench. I'm just not sure we do.

FWIW, I don't think we've lost to a team worse than Newcastle this season (bearing in mind Saint Maximin was out for the game Nakamba played). It was pretty widely agreed that they were the worst PL opposition we faced all season.

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Looking at the numbers on tackles does make you appreciate how good Idrissa Gueye was - he made 144 tackles in the season we went down, 2nd in the league behind an absolutely peak Kante. For comparison, Guilbert lead us last season on 74. In three years with Everton Gueye was 1st, 2nd and 2nd again in terms of tackles with well over a hundred each time - he was very much unappreciated.

 

 

He was.

I hear the line that tackling has gone, we don't do that anymore....that's down to interpretation, sure its hard to see a Harris,Hunter or Smith surviving in the modern game.....but someone has to win the ball, hook or by crook.

Petrov was not a prolific tackler, but he did it by his reading of the game and nicking it in transition.

I am not suggesting cloggers, never have, but we do have to win the ball back better than we do, to have a chance to start winning games.

Ps How Ollie survives in this team right now, I will never know....He is a diamond geezer.

[TRO]

15 minutes ago, Bazmonkey said:

 

Luiz did make the correct decision.

I see where you are coming from....so in that situation i would have gone to Tielemens too.

What makes it look bad is he effectively commits himself which allows Tielemens to pass over it him. BUT it only happens because the shape and positions of other players make it look like it does.

I agree CDM's should go wide...however...they shouldnt be behind any of the defenders in a defensive situation...going forward yes...as you get overlaps from the full backs....but when defending...CDM's should alwayd be in front of the back line...especially in this situation with the ball in the opposition half.

We are getting there, between us.

Great debate.

Edited February 24, 2021 by TRO