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The Midfield Three


Delphinho123

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I think Barkley starting is more of an issue than Jack out. We still have creative players in attack but that gap in midfield Barkley is leaving is too much. We are too leaky with him amd he isnt offfering much at the other end 

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3 minutes ago, Zatman said:

I think Barkley starting is more of an issue than Jack out. We still have creative players in attack but that gap in midfield Barkley is leaving is too much. We are too leaky with him amd he isnt offfering much at the other end 

I'd like to see Barkley dropped just to see how much difference it makes. I suspect the problems are more than just him!

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8 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

He either needs to do this or somebody else needs to be put in his place to do it. Players these days will pull you to pieces if you are a man short in midfield. They'll move you around and create spaces to exploit leading to chances. When Grealish is at 10 then he does this. Maddison does it, Fernandes, Smith-Rowe.

His entering into hibernation mode after we lose the ball leads to the other 2 midfielders being outnumbered 3 to 2, sometimes 4 to 2 meaning they are essentially powerless to stem attacks, regardless of if they are Douglas Luiz and John McGinn or Roy Keane and Patrick Vieira.

Barkley is like a less skilled version of Özil. The game outgrew Özil and it will outgrow Barkley unless he changes his style and starts to work harder. My biggest worry is that he is being instructed to play like he is.

It can’t be. Would make no sense.   He just isn’t delivering hence getting subbed every game but unfortunately by then damage has been done. 

It’s hard to keep defending Smith for starting him every game when there other options.

Edited by Vive_La_Villa
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5 minutes ago, PaulC said:

I'd like to see Barkley dropped just to see how much difference it makes. I suspect the problems are more than just him!

The stats have it that we create more and concede less without him. Our blistering Christmas form was without him 

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1 minute ago, Zatman said:

The stats have it that we create more and concede less without him. Our blistering Christmas form was without him 

That was with Grealish playing in his position wasn't it with Traore and El Ghazi out wide. When grealish is fit we should go back to that 

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We have this debate every season about not having enough muscle at CDM. It always coincides with a losing run, and then Smith turns it around (unsurprisingly, without signing a CDM destroyer) and people go quiet again for a while... until next time.

I'm not saying for a moment that McGinn and Luiz are playing well enough - they aren't. But I don't think we can judge them properly until Barkley either finds some fitness + form, or is dropped.

Defending in football is all about shape, and you only need one or two key players not holding the shape for everyone to look exposed.

If we take West Ham as an example, since they're flavour of the month... the reason they're so hard to break down is the whole team gets into a compact defensive shape as soon as they lose possession. They defend from the front, with hard working forwards and wingers, and that includes Jessi Lingard.

It's not just having Rice and Soucek in there, it's the whole shape around them that helps them do their job properly.

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3 hours ago, PaulC said:

It wasn't so whats changed. 

Don't know, attitude.

We was rubbish in the first half against Leicester, and better in the second half....so if it was fitness, you would think it would be the other way around.

unless of course Leicester with their mid week game , was ok fitness wise in the first half and waned in the second half.

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2 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

It can’t be. Would make no sense.   He just isn’t delivering hence getting subbed every game but unfortunately by then damage has been done. 

It’s hard to keep defending Smith for starting him every game when there other options.

I don't think he is either. It would be tactical suicide. Smith and Shakespeare weren't born yesterday and they surely see what everyone else sees. I really hope he's not starting the next day just to see how the team performs without him from the start, not because I'm in the "send him back to Chelsea" brigade. If it's still shit then you can say we're better off with him in the side but you don't know until you try it. We are however kind of in a bit of a luxury situation as we can afford to try it - we won't be getting relegated if we lose a couple and if dropping Barkley works out then we'll be back challenging for European places.

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1 hour ago, KentVillan said:

We have this debate every season about not having enough muscle at CDM. It always coincides with a losing run, and then Smith turns it around (unsurprisingly, without signing a CDM destroyer) and people go quiet again for a while... until next time.

I'm not saying for a moment that McGinn and Luiz are playing well enough - they aren't. But I don't think we can judge them properly until Barkley either finds some fitness + form, or is dropped.

Defending in football is all about shape, and you only need one or two key players not holding the shape for everyone to look exposed.

If we take West Ham as an example, since they're flavour of the month... the reason they're so hard to break down is the whole team gets into a compact defensive shape as soon as they lose possession. They defend from the front, with hard working forwards and wingers, and that includes Jessi Lingard.

It's not just having Rice and Soucek in there, it's the whole shape around them that helps them do their job properly.

Its not wrong what you say, but it is rarely just a single factor that is wrong....We are lightweight with the 2 holders, no doubt in my mind......but the whole team as you say needs to be at it....just because folk like me harp on about CDM, doesn't mean its the only thing wrong and it equally doesn't mean that plenty that we do is isn't right.....we do many things very well.

Defending in football is all about attitude and physicality too in addition to keeping shape and discipline...mental and physical strength is paramount.... you tend to lose shape when a few individuals get the deck chairs out.

How often have you been to Villa Park in the old days and a thundering challenge comes in early from us and it sets the tone, the crowd roar and it sets them up to win the initiative, it puts us on a front foot.......its not happening right now....Have you seen the physicality of Man City, perhaps its easy to miss watching the guile and Technical ability, but they work like trojans.

You say the opinion of muscle at CDM is only brought up, when we lose.....I think that is very narrow minded. We all want to see Villa win, so why bring up flaws, when we are winning, I have seen the same flaws maybe not as pronounced ,when we have won, but chose to stay stumm, in the interests of enjoying a win.....It doesn't mean issues necessarily go away when we win....It may mean the players who score goals have had a good day and we have won, through other means.

Dean himself said after the Leicester game..." We have to win the right to play football".......surely we all know what that means?....does he have to spell it out?.....and he is 100% spot on.

your point is valid, but its just one factor, just like my point is one factor.

 

Edited by TRO
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4 hours ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I still think any midfield issues are because of Barkley not dropping and being involved leaving them a man short. Leicester set up similar to us with the main difference being Maddison dropping to create the extra man. 
 

Barkley really needs to be dropped. It’s hindering the team a lot in my opinion.

You see, I see it slightly different....I think Maddison can stay up, because Tielemans and Ndidi, control the middle of the park......If you control the middle the creative players don't need to drop back as much....maddison then threads balls in to Vardy and Barnes to run on to.

Their middle 2 give him licence to do that.....they then bought Choudry and Mendy to bolster, even more, to see the game out.

We don't have those kind of personnel options.

Edited by TRO
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5 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Never let the truth get in the way of a good story. Lehman, Lauren, Campbell, Toure, Cole was as good a defence as George Graham’s.

was they?

but you are digressing....the point was they wasn't as durable as Man U and that is a widely held view in football, during that time, sure they had the odd good season.....but in terms of consistency, they didn't have the edge of Man U.

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1 minute ago, TRO said:

was they?

but you are digressing....the point was they wasn't as durable as Man U and that is a widely held view in football, during that time, sure they had the odd good season.....but in terms of consistency, they didn't have the edge of Man U.

They only played together 3 seasons before Cole wanted out and had an unbeaten league season, FA Cup and a Champions League final

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14 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Just seen the goals back and the first one was a mix up between and Elmo and Konsa and second is Elmo flat footed after the save. For all the talk of Barkley, Jack and our midfield. Boy did we miss Matty Cash!

In terms of the last ditch efforts, yes they was at fault......but who stopped Leicester, getting close to us?

I guess some could say Mings should have thrown himself at Maddison, for the first?......but why was Maddison where he was unattended....its hardly, new is it?

In that first half, it was coming, we could see it was coming and its great, it didn't turn in to a route.

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17 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

 Boy did we miss Matty Cash!

Absolutely. And I'm convinced Fred would have been a more than capable alternative... wish we hadn't loaned him out, as I said at the time. 

But, that doesn't mean the midfield was good until we changed it up late in the second half. ;)

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2 minutes ago, Zatman said:

They only played together 3 seasons before Cole wanted out and had an unbeaten league season, FA Cup and a Champions League final

That was one exceptional season in his whole career....Alex was always his nemesis, so I think you are just looking for the exception....perhaps its the main reason Alex was the more successful, but you would disagree no doubt.

Sadly, If I said the ball was round, you would disagree, so save your responses for someone else.

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1 minute ago, TRO said:

That was one exceptional season in his whole career....Alex was always his nemesis, so I think you are just looking for the exception....perhaps its the main reason Alex was the more successful, but you would disagree no doubt.

Sadly, If I said the ball was round, you would disagree, so save your responses for someone else.

No you said the Arsenal defence was built by Graham but defence they had was built by Wenger.

Interesting the 3 years they were together were 3 of the shittest years under Ferguson they won 1 FA Cup vs Millwall in that time

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I have just been watching Leeds and if we play the same three in midfield against them, we will be torn to pieces. Not because they are amazing players but because they are so energetic and physical. They are the polar opposite to our recent midfield performances. We must get energy and physicality in there. 
I would sacrifice Ross for a more traditional centre mid, probably Sanson. I would also consider including Marvelous for SJM.

Let us make it incredibly hard for them for an hour, frustrate them and then possibly look to introduce Ross and SJM later in the game when Leeds have worn out a bit. 
Do nothing and I fear an absolute battering. Maybe 5-0.

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