The Midfield Three

[Delphinho123]

Two central midfielders need to be priorities 1 and 2 on the shopping list this summer. 

We seem to have more depth in this position than any other in the squad, yet it is still our weakest position. 

[Sulberto21]

20 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Last season we beat Arsenal 1-0 with Luiz at 6 and McGinn and Hourihane in front of him. He was class in that game.

There are countless other results over the last year where Luiz has played lone DM and handled himself fine.

He apparently doesn’t win one on ones, and yet today I saw Maddison floored for several minutes after a strong (fair) tackle from Luiz on the edge of our box. I watch him closely every game, and while he definitely isn’t on peak form at the moment, I don’t see him (or the lack of a Nakamba type player)as the key problem at all.

What is exposing him and McGinn is a completely unfit 10 playing in front of them, making it too easy for oppo to play the ball through the middle.

Did anyone else hear someone screaming at “Roscoe” to close someone down today and he just jogged half arsed as the ball was played around him?

You’re fk’d as a DM in that situation because if you press behind the lazy player you just leave space behind you, and if you sit you invite pressure. We’re doing the latter at the moment - ball gets played around Barkley and then Dougie and SJM just sit and wait in front of the defence as oppo charge into the attacking third.

I’m still not really sure what will fix this without some serious improvements in fitness and form. But for now I would probably go with Sanson in for Barkley and have two 8s (SJM & Sanson) shuttling either side of Dougie. With Ramsey getting 30 mins second half.

I think a lot of Dougie’s perceived weaknesses will disappear with two active 8s in front of him, and SJM is more comfortable in that role anyway.

Exactly. As soon as we went to Douglas sitting in the number 6 role in the second half we looked more solid. Leicester weren't cutting through us with ease. Still had the ball a lot but we clawed it back. Ended with 50 -50 possession.

The best CDM in the world is 5'10. The 22 year old Douglas is half an inch shorter than Fernandinho.

[eholm]

Some interesting view points here and good to have different opinions on arguably our most pressing tactical issue. I can see merits in most observations. I guess, above all, it comes down to the personnel. A system is only as good as the players within it as even a questionable system can be improved by the quality of players it governs. 

For me, this is a huge test for Smith. I’m curious as to how much he acts on the advice he gets from CS. As the most experienced PL coach you would have thought he could possibly have more solutions. I’m not for one moment saying that Smith is being overly stubborn but in times of struggle a good leader listens to his lieutenants. If Smith and Co can get this midfield issue resolved we can then kick on once more. At present it’s as though we are facing the ‘difficult 2nd album’ scenario. Teams know what we are all about and are successfully nullifying us in the 2nd half of season. 

I will be amazed if there isn’t at least a personnel and/or a system change in midfield for Leeds. If there is none then I fear for the result. 

[AVTuco]

Our best plays come when we bypass the midfield via a long ball or via Jack carrying the ball. Our midfield is very poor, Luiz, McGinn, Barkley all been sub-par. Dean sees this, and brought in Sanson, who unfortunately has not been able to convince him. Ramsey is still young and raw, Nakamba can't handle the ball to save his life... we need better in the summer. 

[Bazmonkey]

I didn't watch the game but managed to catch the highlights on MOTD.

I dont always agree with the analysis but Shearer and Dublin were spot on last night.

Our midfield offer nothing...in defence and attack...no drive...no press.

The writing as per the normal was on the wall after 40 seconds.....everyone backs off...shot on goal.

Recently too many times in too many games we have allowed teams not only to find space in midfield but astonishingly walk through it.

As pointed out Leicester players taking four touches...get to the box...have a shot...why....BACKING OFF...you have defenders next to the GK...midfielders not knowing to stick or twist on the edge of the box...its very bad.

It's like they are afraid of defending...inviting teams on.

Pains me to say it but West Ham yesterday showed how to do it....a bank of four on the edge of the box and defensive two 15 yards in front...forcing spurs to play on the half way line...they looked solid and delt with anything that came through the middle. We wait on the edge...deep...inviting...then if we do win it...big hoof to Watkins who has half the oppo to deal with until by some chance support arrives because we have eight players still in the box.

In the picture attached shows this...all our players static on the edge of the box...waiting...in this case 6 of them...this is just an example but it happens time and time again

Smith needs to address this...are players not fit or not good enough...either way it's a concern as we don't look like getting anything playing like this.

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Bazmonkey
...

[eholm]

28 minutes ago, Bazmonkey said:

I didn't watch the game but managed to catch the highlights on MOTD.

I dont always agree with the analysis but Shearer and Dublin were spot on last night.

Our midfield offer nothing...in defence and attack...no drive...no press.

The writing as per the normal was on the wall after 40 seconds.....everyone backs off...shot on goal.

Recently too many times in too many games we have allowed teams not only to find space in midfield but astonishingly walk through it.

As pointed out Leicester players taking four touches...get to the box...have a shot...why....BACKING OFF...you have defenders next to the GK...midfielders not knowing to stick or twist on the edge of the box...its very bad.

It's like they are afraid of defending...inviting teams on.

Pains me to say it but West Ham yesterday showed how to do it....a bank of four on the edge of the box and defensive two 15 yards in front...forcing spurs to play on the half way line...they looked solid and delt with anything that came through the middle. We wait on the edge...deep...inviting...then if we do win it...big hoof to Watkins who has half the oppo to deal with until by some chance support arrives because we have eight players still in the box.

In the picture attached shows this...all our players static on the edge of the box...waiting...in this case 6 of them...this is just an example but it happens time and time again

Smith needs to address this...are players not fit or not good enough...either way it's a concern as we don't look like getting anything playing like this.

 

Must be tactical. At one point Mings was heard telling those in front of him to slow  down with their pressing; Smith possibly concerned that our press would be beaten and then Leicester would be in. So maybe his thinking was to allow Leicester to have the ball and we just sit deep and engage them when near edge of box. 

Wrong call imo but there must have been a logic behind it...

[Bazmonkey]

23 minutes ago, eholm said:

Must be tactical. At one point Mings was heard telling those in front of him to slow  down with their pressing; Smith possibly concerned that our press would be beaten and then Leicester would be in. So maybe his thinking was to allow Leicester to have the ball and we just sit deep and engage them when near edge of box. 

Wrong call imo but there must have been a logic behind it...

As a coach myself.....if this is the case then its a poor tactical decision....allowing teams to come on...take shots.

I kind of agree slightly to some extent in the attacking third...otherwise you just end up burned out pressing all over the pitch....but not when we are in our own half on the edge of the box.

And that's the thing...we dont engage....i know stats are misleading...well...some are...but we are highest in league for average shots against.....and dangerously...most touches in own box...these are stats that need to be addressed.

Our press gets beaten because we do it in 2 and 3's...not 4's and 5's.

Its a brave call by Smith if this is the case and something we wasnt doing at the start of the season...hence the good performances and results.

[Mjvilla]

4 minutes ago, Bazmonkey said:

As a coach myself.....if this is the case then its a poor tactical decision....allowing teams to come on...take shots.

I kind of agree slightly to some extent in the attacking third...otherwise you just end up burned out pressing all over the pitch....but not when we are in our own half on the edge of the box.

And that's the thing...we dont engage....i know stats are misleading...well...some are...but we are highest in league for average shots against.....and dangerously...most touches in own box...these are stats that need to be addressed.

Our press gets beaten because we do it in 2 and 3's...not 4's and 5's.

Its a brave call by Smith if this is the case and something we wasnt doing at the start of the season...hence the good performances and results.

Can you back that up please?

[Sulberto21]

2 minutes ago, Bazmonkey said:

As a coach myself.....if this is the case then its a poor tactical decision....allowing teams to come on...take shots.

I kind of agree slightly to some extent in the attacking third...otherwise you just end up burned out pressing all over the pitch....but not when we are in our own half on the edge of the box.

And that's the thing...we dont engage....i know stats are misleading...well...some are...but we are highest in league for average shots against.....and dangerously...most touches in own box...these are stats that need to be addressed.

Our press gets beaten because we do it in 2 and 3's...not 4's and 5's.

Its a brave call by Smith if this is the case and something we wasnt doing at the start of the season...hence the good performances and results.

I've been saying that Doug needs to be the sole 6 with two 8's either side. When we went with that in the second half we had more solidity in the middle. 

Do you think we should go back to this? Deano has played that style of formation throughout his career. And I'm pretty sure Barkley when he joined said he sees himself as an 8 too. 

[Mjvilla]

1 hour ago, Bazmonkey said:

I didn't watch the game but managed to catch the highlights on MOTD.

I dont always agree with the analysis but Shearer and Dublin were spot on last night.

Our midfield offer nothing...in defence and attack...no drive...no press.

The writing as per the normal was on the wall after 40 seconds.....everyone backs off...shot on goal.

Recently too many times in too many games we have allowed teams not only to find space in midfield but astonishingly walk through it.

As pointed out Leicester players taking four touches...get to the box...have a shot...why....BACKING OFF...you have defenders next to the GK...midfielders not knowing to stick or twist on the edge of the box...its very bad.

It's like they are afraid of defending...inviting teams on.

Pains me to say it but West Ham yesterday showed how to do it....a bank of four on the edge of the box and defensive two 15 yards in front...forcing spurs to play on the half way line...they looked solid and delt with anything that came through the middle. We wait on the edge...deep...inviting...then if we do win it...big hoof to Watkins who has half the oppo to deal with until by some chance support arrives because we have eight players still in the box.

In the picture attached shows this...all our players static on the edge of the box...waiting...in this case 6 of them...this is just an example but it happens time and time again

Smith needs to address this...are players not fit or not good enough...either way it's a concern as we don't look like getting anything playing like this.

 

West ham gave away more shots than us yesterday.  Spurs hit the bar and post and missed numerous good chances. This against a renowned defensive side.

After the 2 goals, and particularly second half, I didn't see Leicester scoring really. Fine margins in football, it really is. Shown by this. 

Not saying we did well, but using west hams performance yesterday as a way of picking at ours doesn't fit right. Yes, they won and we didn't... and it's a results business. If the 2 results had been switched, no one could complain.

[Bazmonkey]

32 minutes ago, Mjvilla said:

Can you back that up please?

They mentioned on MOTD last night...as to where they got it from?????

But like I have said previously...you only have to re-watch our games and it is a viable stat.

32 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

I've been saying that Doug needs to be the sole 6 with two 8's either side. When we went with that in the second half we had more solidity in the middle. 

Do you think we should go back to this? Deano has played that style of formation throughout his career. And I'm pretty sure Barkley when he joined said he sees himself as an 8 too. 

I would go 4 1 4 1 

I think playing two CDM's with our current players and form doesn't suit us.  I think Luiz and McGinn confuse each other...shall go...shall you go....ill sit...no you sit.

Push McGinn up in to the midfield three making it 4.....gives us more width in midfield and an extra bod...... and let Luiz and McGinn do their thing.

[Mjvilla]

9 minutes ago, Bazmonkey said:

They mentioned on MOTD last night...as to where they got it from?????

Terrible punditry, they are wrong. Certainly about the most shots against on average per game! 

Did they also mention on MOTD about us having the 2nd highest clean sheets this season? 

I watch football matches, NEVER listen to the 'pundits'.

[PaulC]

35 minutes ago, Mjvilla said:

West ham gave away more shots than us yesterday.  Spurs hit the bar and post and missed numerous good chances. This against a renowned defensive side.

After the 2 goals, and particularly second half, I didn't see Leicester scoring really. Fine margins in football, it really is. Shown by this. 

Not saying we did well, but using west hams performance yesterday as a way of picking at ours doesn't fit right. Yes, they won and we didn't... and it's a results business. If the 2 results had been switched, no one could complain.

Look at how West Ham started the game compared to how we did.  You wont pick up many points from being two goals down. 

[Mjvilla]

2 minutes ago, PaulC said:

Look at how West Ham started the game compared to how we did.  You wont pick up many points from being two goals down. 

Yes and I completely agree. My point about not using west hams performance to pick at our own still stands. In fact, I'd say our arsenal performance was similar to that of west hams yesterday... (Better if anything) and the same poster criticised that too.

[PaulC]

1 minute ago, Mjvilla said:

Yes and I completely agree. My point about not using west hams performance to pick at our own still stands. In fact, I'd say our arsenal performance was similar to that of west hams yesterday... (Better if anything) and the same poster criticised that too.

True and watching the highlights of the west ham game Harry Kane missed a lot of good chances. It could have ended 5-2 to Spurs. It is small margins in games but we gave them too much room to play with in the first half. Smith cannot start with Barkley next game. if he does and we loose then he deserves  a lot of criticism. 

[AndyM3000]

58 minutes ago, Mjvilla said:

Can you back that up please?

Its not true.

[Sulberto21]

1 minute ago, AndyM3000 said:

Its not true.

I'd like to see us lower on that list.

[AndyM3000]

4 minutes ago, Sulberto21 said:

I'd like to see us lower on that list.

So would I but it doesn't tell the whole story. We are still pretty low down on the table of expected goals conceded, only 5 teams have better defences based on that stat but we do have a couple of games in hand. Brighton had 26 shots against us and they should have won but their shot selection was very poor. I'm more concerned with the quality of chances we give our opponent than the amount, Liverpool don't let the other team have many shots but when they do it's usually a big chance of a goal.

The trend is heading in the wrong direct though as we were much better earlier in the season and have rode our luck more. The CM area needs a shake up for me with Barkely and McGinn taken out of it, without Jack we will have to play a more explosive/counter attack style. 

[andym]

I remember looking at shots and goals against the other week, and since our Covid break the 'shots against' has got significantly worse.

First half of the season (and going back to the end of last season) we were generally really good at limiting chances against. Even that Southampton game, they pretty much scored every shot they had and that included two 25 yard freekicks, that doesn't happen often at all.

Last few weeks though, except against Newcastle and Arsenal, its been a shooting gallery in comparison. Goals conceded has still been ok, but that's mainly down to some excellent rear guard action by the back 4 and Emi.

The rest of the team (except Ollie upfront) seem to have lost a yard, and it's really impacting us on both sides of the ball. The biggest difference I noticed the first half of this season compared to most of last season is that we finally looked a fast team, that we could really compete physically in this league; for whatever reason that isn't the case, we now look laboured far too often. 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by andym

[Laughable Chimp]

33 minutes ago, andym said:

I remember looking at shots and goals against the other week, and since our Covid break the 'shots against' has got significantly worse.

First half of the season (and going back to the end of last season) we were generally really good at limiting chances against. Even that Southampton game, they pretty much scored every shot they had and that included two 25 yard freekicks, that doesn't happen often at all.

Last few weeks though, except against Newcastle and Arsenal, its been a shooting gallery in comparison. Goals conceded has still been ok, but that's mainly down to some excellent rear guard action by the back 4 and Emi.

The rest of the team (except Ollie upfront) seem to have lost a yard, and it's really impacting us on both sides of the ball. The biggest difference I noticed the first half of this season compared to most of last season is that we finally looked a fast team, that we could really compete physically in this league; for whatever reason that isn't the case, we now look laboured far too often. 

 

17.6 shots conceded per game after the covid break compared to 11.9 shots conceded per game before to be precise.