Douglas Luiz

[villa4europe]

23 minutes ago, peterw said:

You don't need to be a tackler to be a cdm as much as you need to anticipate and be able to read a game.  The job is more about protection and covering gaps than it is about being able to tackle. if you look at Dennis Mortimer he was a reader and someone who anticipated rather than tackled but he was an ideal number 6. Also, in the modern game I don't think anyone receives the ball from Martinez and shifts it better than him. One of the oft overlook things from this season is how well we transition the ball from the defence and Luiz rarely loses it or misplaces it.

Yep

Interception stats > tackling stats 

Its what made busquets the best in the world in the position, with the ball or without the ball he was always stodd exactly where he needed to be 

[villalad21]

46 minutes ago, peterw said:

You don't need to be a tackler to be a cdm as much as you need to anticipate and be able to read a game.  The job is more about protection and covering gaps than it is about being able to tackle. if you look at Dennis Mortimer he was a reader and someone who anticipated rather than tackled but he was an ideal number 6. Also, in the modern game I don't think anyone receives the ball from Martinez and shifts it better than him. One of the oft overlook things from this season is how well we transition the ball from the defence and Luiz rarely loses it or misplaces it.

 

 

We aren't exactly Barcelona who dominates games.

We actually do need a tackler.

Maybe 4-5 years down the line we can become that but right now we need a destroyer in midfield.

Our keeper and defenders are being overworked mainly because of our midfield getting bypassed every game.

Edited May 13, 2021 by villalad21

[lexicon]

27 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

Yep

Interception stats > tackling stats 

Its what made busquets the best in the world in the position, with the ball or without the ball he was always stodd exactly where he needed to be 

Exactly, it's positioning - which requires, awareness, ability to read the game and the mobility to get there. Luiz has all three. 

For me, that position is marked by the intangibles, which is why some people find it difficult to grasp. 

[TRO]

11 hours ago, MrBlack said:

Suggests to me he's another Luiz. Both are an offensive partner for a more defensive minded cdm in the double pivot to me. 

Not sure where McGinn fits in..., but we really do need a more capable cdm that doesn't get dribbled past as much as these three seem to.

Spot on imo.

[tinker]

We need someone who can challenge a player without giving away a free kick away. 

[TRO]

34 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Exactly, it's positioning - which requires, awareness, ability to read the game and the mobility to get there. Luiz has all three. 

For me, that position is marked by the intangibles, which is why some people find it difficult to grasp. 

There is a monumental difference between Busquets and Luiz, physicality and stature is just two......Its not that some people fail to grasp what you are saying, more like they disagree.....I am not taken by Luiz's positioning, its hit and miss for me and his physicality or presence, is not a threat, either,in the role he plays......He is still learning, I accept that and it is mirrored in his play.....but in the mean time we have games to win.

I am very clear in my mind, what attributes are required in the CDM role to be a good one....but I am not convinced, so far, that Dougie is a good one.

Time and development, may change my mind.....but I wouldn't sell him.

I think, where the disparity in views lie, is with the ball, and without the ball.....Dougie is a much better player with the ball than without it.

Edited May 13, 2021 by TRO

[OxfordVillan]

I think some here getting confused between physicality and tackling. When I call for more physicality in CM I’m talking about someone big enough and strong enough not to be knocked off the ball, someone that can lean into an opposition player and ease them off the ball if required. I think we all mostly know that the hard tackling many of us knew has almost been officiated out of the game. The best CMs now need positional acumen to intercept, and if you happen to have one of those with physical attributes then you’re in a good place. 

[Laughable Chimp]

1 hour ago, villa4europe said:

Yep

Interception stats > tackling stats 

Its what made busquets the best in the world in the position, with the ball or without the ball he was always stodd exactly where he needed to be 

His interception stats are shit too.

[a m ole]

[lexicon]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

There is a monumental difference between Busquets and Luiz, physicality and stature is just two......Its not that some people fail to grasp what you are saying, more like they disagree.....I am not taken by Luiz's positioning, its hit and miss for me and his physicality or presence, is not a threat, either,in the role he plays......He is still learning, I accept that and it is mirrored in his play.....but in the mean time we have games to win.

I am very clear in my mind, what attributes are required in the CDM role to be a good one....but I am not convinced, so far, that Dougie is a good one.

Time and development, may change my mind.....but I wouldn't sell him.

I think, where the disparity in views lie, is with the ball, and without the ball.....Dougie is a much better player with the ball than without it.

Ah yes, famous physically-inclined hard-man Sergio Busquets... come on TRO, have you ever actually watched him play? He's not much different to Luiz in terms of strength or physicality. Yes, he's taller, and he's one of the best players in his position but those two factors are mutually exclusive. 

I understand that you don't get what Luiz does off the ball, but I don't understand why you can't see it. 

 

 

[Steero113]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

There is a monumental difference between Busquets and Luiz, physicality and stature is just two......Its not that some people fail to grasp what you are saying, more like they disagree.....I am not taken by Luiz's positioning, its hit and miss for me and his physicality or presence, is not a threat, either,in the role he plays......He is still learning, I accept that and it is mirrored in his play.....but in the mean time we have games to win.

I am very clear in my mind, what attributes are required in the CDM role to be a good one....but I am not convinced, so far, that Dougie is a good one.

Time and development, may change my mind.....but I wouldn't sell him.

I think, where the disparity in views lie, is with the ball, and without the ball.....Dougie is a much better player with the ball than without it.

Busquets? He's about as physically intimidating as:

Seriously, just because he's tall does not make him a physical presence. He's good because he's canny, can pass extremely well, is very composed and reads the game brilliantly. 

[PaulC]

Good things can come in small packages as well. Tro will remember  Alex Cropley who probably didnt weigth much more than 6 stone, but he was fearsome in the tackle. Luiz is a nice pretty player but he needs to find that aggression to be a good CM. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, lexicon said:

Ah yes, famous physically-inclined hard-man Sergio Busquets... come on TRO, have you ever actually watched him play? He's not much different to Luiz in terms of strength or physicality. Yes, he's taller, and he's one of the best players in his position but those two factors are mutually exclusive. 

I understand that you don't get what Luiz does off the ball, but I don't understand why you can't see it. 

 

 

I didn't say Hard Man, thats your own mind feeding your own narrative for self statisfaction.....I am refering to Physicality which includes stature....you say he is taller, thats an important feature for a DM to help cut out long balls and defend the back four.....You agree he is taller and then go on to say, they are similar in strength and physicality....I disagree with you.

You can talk until the cows come home of what type does what........it all boils down to stopping the opposition through the middle, Dougie struggles with it, quite regularly....He retreats to his own back yard.( The Area)

Its far more than just I that is having doubts, about him this season....the conversations have increased on this subject.

I have watched Busquets play, not every week, sure, but I know the difference...I equally don't understand what you seem to see to argue with my point......Do you watch Busquets much? 

I accept reading the game is an important part of the role, But I don't see that as an important feature of Dougies game, not yet anyway.'''....I keep hearing he is young and learning, who's arguing with that.....its the ability to stop opponents raiding through the middle, is the essence of the point and in my humble opinion, we need some better than McGinn and Luiz to do it....with more defensive Nous.

Look, we will have to agree to disagree on this....its going nowhere, we have to accept we see things differently and move on.

I would say, if we sign a player, like Anguissa or Bissouma, its for a legititmate reason.....I hope we do.

 

[TRO]

2 hours ago, Steero113 said:

Busquets? He's about as physically intimidating as:

Seriously, just because he's tall does not make him a physical presence. He's good because he's canny, can pass extremely well, is very composed and reads the game brilliantly. 

Just because he is canny and can pass extremely well, doesn't mean he hasn't got a presence either.

The point is being misconstrued.

Jack Grealish was canny and could pass extremely well, but it was only when he added strength to his game, did he become the player he is.

If you don't appreciate strength, physicality or presence in a game, fine.....but don't try to make out its instead of being canny or passing well, because that is a false narrative.

 

[lexicon]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I didn't say Hard Man, thats your own mind feeding your own narrative for self statisfaction.....I am refering to Physicality which includes stature....you say he is taller, thats an important feature for a DM to help cut out long balls and defend the back four.....You agree he is taller and then go on to say, they are similar in strength and physicality....I disagree with you.

You can talk until the cows come home of what type does what........it all boils down to stopping the opposition through the middle, Dougie struggles with it, quite regularly....He retreats to his own back yard.( The Area)

Its far more than just I that is having doubts, about him this season....the conversations have increased on this subject.

I have watched Busquets play, not every week, sure, but I know the difference...I equally don't understand what you seem to see to argue with my point......Do you watch Busquets much? 

I accept reading the game is an important part of the role, But I don't see that as an important feature of Dougies game, not yet anyway.'''....I keep hearing he is young and learning, who's arguing with that.....its the ability to stop opponents raiding through the middle, is the essence of the point and in my humble opinion, we need some better than McGinn and Luiz to do it....with more defensive Nous.

Look, we will have to agree to disagree on this....its going nowhere, we have to accept we see things differently and move on.

I would say, if we sign a player, like Anguissa or Bissouma, its for a legititmate reason.....I hope we do.

 

I think you've misused or misunderstood the definition of physicality, then - 'involvement of a lot of bodily contact or activity'. That's not Busquet's game. 

[TRO]

46 minutes ago, lexicon said:

I think you've misused or misunderstood the definition of physicality, then - 'involvement of a lot of bodily contact or activity'. That's not Busquet's game. 

I think you have misused or misunderstood the point.

Then the example may not be the best, but don't be distracted from the point.....You seem to cling to examples to find fault and fail to address the point being made.

Do you accept it is more likely for a taller player to intercept or challenge for an aerial ball, than a smaller player with a lesser physique?.does it not lend it self to Goalkeepers too, would it fitting to have a 5'9 Goalkeeper?

I think you know exactly what point is being made.....just say you don't agree and save us all time.

Edited May 13, 2021 by TRO

[KenjiOgiwara]

6 hours ago, lexicon said:

Exactly, it's positioning - which requires, awareness, ability to read the game and the mobility to get there. Luiz has all three. 

For me, that position is marked by the intangibles, which is why some people find it difficult to grasp. 

But it's also size. Busquets people mention here is like Gulliver dude compared to Luiz. You need to be an exceptional footballer to work around the lack of physique.

Edited May 13, 2021 by KenjiOgiwara

[TRO]

6 hours ago, villa4europe said:

Yep

Interception stats > tackling stats 

Its what made busquets the best in the world in the position, with the ball or without the ball he was always stodd exactly where he needed to be 

but the point is being distorted.....He stops the opposition from getting at the back four.

How you do it, is immaterial, it needs to be done.....Many CDM's have varying attributes, but he point is, they get the job done.

I made an example and it may not be the best, but the point is still there.

Who is to say, if he was 5'6, it would have worked out as well.....you adapt to what you have or are.....but certain positions make it more difficult, if you are diminuitive.....not saying Luiz is, but we are drifting here.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

But it's also size. Busquets people mention here is like Gulliver dude compared to Luiz. You need to be an exceptional footballer to work around the lack of physique.

Totally my point....shame some can't see it.

[Sam-AVFC]

I get the point about being taller making it easier to deal with high balls, but I can't remember any occasions where Luiz has had to and failed.

Very few teams play that way any more and our high line means long balls are likely to go straight to our CBs. Whether or not we should be playing with such a high line is another debate altogether.