Douglas Luiz

[villalad21]

5 minutes ago, KentVillan said:

Yeah I agree with this. He had acres of space to play in against a very loose and demoralised Spurs side on a big pitch. But he definitely knew what he was doing.

If you look at the career development of players like Pirlo, Scholes, Gundogan, Xavi, etc. you'll see the same arguments every time about whether they belong high up the pitch or in a deeper role. He's similar to them in being very complete, good feet, excellent long passing, decent shot, positionally sound, etc. With those kinds of players they'll always link up well wherever you play them.

Gundogan is probably the best example in today's game - Klopp used him as a DM at Dortmund, Pep used him there too, but now uses him as false 9, box to box, whatever.

Reality is he can probably play several positions well, and it will depend a lot on the individual match situation. I don't think saying "he's not a DM" is right.

Reality is we won't know yet.

Let's see what kind of midfielder he turns in to when he is 26-27 and in his prime.

I can't see a lot of defensive quality  in him but i can see loads of offensive qualities. Think he will turn into a fine CM or maybe even a CAM

[KentVillan]

Just now, villalad21 said:

Reality is we won't know yet.

Let's see what kind of midfielder he turns in to when he is 26-27 and in his prime.

I can't see a lot of defensive quality  in him but i can see loads of offensive qualities. Think he will turn into a fine CM or maybe even a CAM

We've just gone a whole season playing a 22 year old at DM 99% of the time and we've conceded 45 goals. He must have some defensive qualities, or we'd be getting battered.

And before people say it's all Martinez / defensive blocks, our xG Against (49.8) is similar to West Ham's (48.5), who supposedly have two amazing DMs. It just doesn't make sense to me that our weak link is defensive midfield... not in most games, anyway.

You could definitely be right that Luiz has the ability to specialise long term in a more advanced role. Maybe today was Smith experimenting with a few options for next season.

[PaulC]

I think he is most likely better higher up the field but you have Grealish as the AM with McGinn and no doubt we will sign a dm in the summer so unless Grealish goes or moves out wide, which I dont think he should I dont know where he fits in unless as a squad player 

[Tom13]

13 hours ago, villalad21 said:

Reality is we won't know yet.

Let's see what kind of midfielder he turns in to when he is 26-27 and in his prime.

I can't see a lot of defensive quality  in him but i can see loads of offensive qualities. Think he will turn into a fine CM or maybe even a CAM

CM is a possibility, will never be a CAM.

[TRO]

5 hours ago, PaulC said:

I think he is most likely better higher up the field but you have Grealish as the AM with McGinn and no doubt we will sign a dm in the summer so unless Grealish goes or moves out wide, which I dont think he should I dont know where he fits in unless as a squad player 

Paul many will become more squad players, they will have to fight for the shirt......for too long now, we have become accustomed to just having a team that picks itself.....That harbours complacency.....Dean has to manage a bigger squad, even though he doesn't want to stock pile players.

I hope we don't sell that many in the closed season, only the obvious ones.....McGinn and Luiz are clearly better further forward and McGinn's pressing game returned after long last, he does far better further forward....Luiz looked like " Free Willy" like letting a whale free....letting him go where he can be more affective with his ball control and passing......These players have a definate future with us in their rightful positions.....and bring in players for positions they have adopted for the cause....I have criticised both of them for their play in those roles, but I knew they were not in their natural roles....its been frustrating.

 

[PaulC]

11 minutes ago, TRO said:

Paul many will become more squad players, they will have to fight for the shirt......for too long now, we have become accustomed to just having a team that picks itself.....That harbours complacency.....Dean has to manage a bigger squad, even though he doesn't want to stock pile players.

I hope we don't sell that many in the closed season, only the obvious ones.....McGinn and Luiz are clearly better further forward and McGinn's pressing game returned after long last, he does far better further forward....Luiz looked like " Free Willy" like letting a whale free....letting him go where he can be more affective with his ball control and passing......These players have a definate future with us in their rightful positions.....and bring in players for positions they have adopted for the cause....I have criticised both of them for their play in those roles, but I knew they were not in their natural roles....its been frustrating.

 

I agree you need competition for places.  I just think 20 minutes is too small a sample size to judge whether thats Luiz's better position. 

[TRO]

9 minutes ago, PaulC said:

I agree you need competition for places.  I just think 20 minutes is too small a sample size to judge whether thats Luiz's better position. 

It is, but just watching him, I believe it to be so.....just putting my head above the parapet.

He is far better with the ball than without it for me.....time and development may alter that of course.

but conversely, I think Nakamba is better without it than with it, but that might apply too

Edited May 20, 2021 by TRO

[PaulC]

Just now, TRO said:

It is, but just watching him, I believe it to be so.....just putting my head above the parapet.

He is far better with the ball than without it for me.....time and development may alter that of course.

Quite true even in that position he did bottle one or two challenges.  I think its Jacks best position too and I would much rather see him in the AM role not on the left side. 

[VillaJay]

Need a new contract in the summer will have 2 years remaining, is good enough to improve and push the starting 11 next season. Good age, Brazil international and will only get better.

Big season for him next year and we need to protect his value. The flip side though is if his transfer clause is activated for 30m+ we still would have done well out of this deal.

 

[MentalM]

On 20/05/2021 at 00:04, villalad21 said:

can't see a lot of defensive quality  in him but i can see loads of offensive qualities. Think he will turn into a fine CM or maybe even a CAM

He is nr 3 in our team in interceptions, behind Cash and Targett. Nr 3 in blocks behind Mings and Konsa, the next person after the 4 defenders in clearances. Nr 6 in tackles (behind Cash, Targett, Nakamba, McGinn and Trezeguet).

How does he have few defensive qualities?

I am just glad we have a player with the tactical awareness to also do the occasional professional foul, who rarely gives away the ball for nothing.

 

Yes, he could do better in other positions, but he clearly have abilities both offensively and defensively. 

[Dante_Lockhart]

I think he needed the break/benching. Hopefully he doesn't sulk over it and it drives him to improve and contend for the starting line-up.

[wilko154]

Funny how there are now no worries about Man City coming in for him; and even if they did it would be considered a decent enough deal for Villa.

The good news is that Luiz has the ability to get over this dip in form and become a very good central midfielder. Age is on his side, and he's already shown enough to prove there is a player in him.

I'm looking forward to seeing him play further forward next season; even his cameo against Tottenham proved that he is an effective player further forward and a defensive midfielder in the side allows him to play this way.

[CVByrne]

If City did come back for him they'd be paying slightly above his market value to get him. So it's neutral to us if he stays or goes. 

[mykeyb]

I fully expect Man City to use their buyback clause on Dougie and then use him as a makeweight in a deal for Jack.

[nick76]

8 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

I fully expect Man City to use their buyback clause on Dougie and then use him as a makeweight in a deal for Jack.

So they buy Dougie at 25m....what do you expect us to pay to buy him back for to make it worthwhile for Man City to make this move because they would have to be looking at 10m, 15m, 20m profit on Dougie to make your scenario work.  

I honestly am not sure we would pay Man City anywhere in the region of 35m or above (25+10m) for Dougie or any equivalent value in a makeweight deal.  I think there would be better value in the market than Dougie at those sort of values.

[Panto_Villan]

15 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

I fully expect Man City to use their buyback clause on Dougie and then use him as a makeweight in a deal for Jack.

That'd leave them looking a bit dumb when we say "cool, you can keep him and we'll keep the £25m". I'd be fine with us keeping him and giving him a chance to recapture his form, but I'd also be fine with us selling him for £25m.

[barry'sboots]

He's a funny one, our Dougie.  Probably our best player during Restart, as a DCM.  Equally, very good in the pre-Christmas period, again as a DCM, when the whole midfield - Dougie, SJM and Barkley - functioned fantastically during, e.g., the Liverpool demolition and the away win at Arsenal.  

I just can't begin to understand what has happened to him and SJM in 2021.  I am hoping it is a dip in form due to youth or that he is just trying to throw Citeh off the scent!!

If we could have the 2020 Dougie back then we will have some player - as a DCM or further forward - if we cannot then I would happily take the 30m and redeploy it.

[Paul33]

3 minutes ago, barry'sboots said:

If we could have the 2020 Dougie back then we will have some player - as a DCM or further forward - if we cannot then I would happily take the 30m and redeploy it.

100% this. Luiz is simply nowhere near good enough on this season's form. Way too slow and has morphed from world class to a poor man's Hourihane in twelve months !

[M_Afro]

When does the buy back clause lapse?

[M_Afro]

£25m for a young Brazilian international midfielder who has two years PL experience is peanuts. I really hope we keep him. We have a settled squad now that we need to build upon. We don’t need any churn. It’s way too disruptive. Luiz is a good player struggling for form. We need to keep him.