Douglas Luiz

[AVFCDAN]

Still really struggle to see what his attributes are to be honest.

Hess not particularly quick, his defensive pressing isn't amazing, he doesn't particularly have an eye for a pass and he also doesn't offer much in attacking areas.

Maybe his role doesnt allow him to shine in any of those areas but i think Sanson could take his place next seaosn.

[KenjiOgiwara]

You could say a lot of the same things about Petrov to be fair. Some players keep sides ticking and it's important.

But yes, he isn't impressing in anything really. And we desperately need to increase the size of the team. We're bullied all over the park because our midfielders are soft as shit.

Maybe the real problem is that the dynamics, attributes and play between SJM and Luiz simply don't match each other. I can't really put my finger on it, but whenever I watch our midfield the balance seems all wrong. And I thought that even when we've won.

[Stevo985]

As long as I can remember, VT and football fans in general have vastly underrated the DM position and those who play there.

Luiz is good. He's not a world beater but he is absolutely fine for where we are as a club in that position. There are far more areas to be concerned about in the team than him

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

2 hours ago, AVFCDAN said:

Still really struggle to see what his attributes are to be honest.

Hess not particularly quick, his defensive pressing isn't amazing, he doesn't particularly have an eye for a pass and he also doesn't offer much in attacking areas.

Maybe his role doesnt allow him to shine in any of those areas but i think Sanson could take his place next seaosn.

This is pretty much where I am on Luiz.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

As long as I can remember, VT and football fans in general have vastly underrated the DM position and those who play there.

Luiz is good. He's not a world beater but he is absolutely fine for where we are as a club in that position. There are far more areas to be concerned about in the team than him

Not sure if I can 100 percent agree, Nakamba, with all his limitations, get's praised when he does the basics of the job well.

Most people are just trying to divert from the fact that some of us, just don't think Luiz is the most effective for the position currently, whatever fancy name/role we want to name the position.

As a few other posters, including myself have pointed out, this could have to do with the overall dynamic/balance of the midfield currently.

Edited May 11, 2021 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[AVFCDAN]

1 hour ago, Stevo985 said:

As long as I can remember, VT and football fans in general have vastly underrated the DM position and those who play there.

Luiz is good. He's not a world beater but he is absolutely fine for where we are as a club in that position. There are far more areas to be concerned about in the team than him

Between him and SJM something has to give, as a midfield pairing we arent going to improve until at least one of them is replaced imo.

[jimmygreaves]

3 minutes ago, AVFCDAN said:

Between him and SJM something has to give, as a midfield pairing we arent going to improve until at least one of them is replaced imo.

Strange isn't it because they we're fine before the enforced covid break... excelling even.

Now they're crap and we can't improve with them in the side.

[tinker]

2 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

As long as I can remember, VT and football fans in general have vastly underrated the DM position and those who play there.

Luiz is good. He's not a world beater but he is absolutely fine for where we are as a club in that position. There are far more areas to be concerned about in the team than him

Luiz is a good player, he hads a eye for a decent pass and always shows for the ball even under pressure, moves with the ball well and as he matures he will be a great asset....... as a number 8.

He's a major weakness as DM when we do not have the ball. He's not strong enough and isn't great at challenging for the ball.l. He's gets far to close to the player and has a tendancy to grab players and as we all know, kicks out.

If we had a good DM we would be higher up the table and for me its our biggest weakness as a team.

[TRO]

17 hours ago, thabucks said:

Its word semantics as the above highlighted basically boil down to the exact same thing. IMO what you are referring to is an outdated concept where the DM is a brute enforcer. Nowadays being a modern DM is more about being smart both with and without the, not just be harder and bigger. Luiz has all the characteristics to be a world class DM. Harrying the ball and closing down, cutting off passes into dangerous areas putting players off but not given them space and then settling up play. Kante is the don at it. Makulele the godfather. Carrick honourable mention. Harry Winks is similar - slight in build but effective at both breaking up play and then recycling the ball with intent rather than passive passing to his midfield partner to take play forward. 

I completely disagree.

Watch Soucek & Rice.....watch Rodri & Fernandinho..... I could go on.

All the top sides have a DM who can win the ball with aggression and stay strong in the middle of the park.....you are painting a picture that is false.

Officiating today, doesn't allow brute force, but teams like Burnley know how to apply physicality without too much attention from Refs.......when you watch Man city, they too apply a physical close contact game that wins the ball back on a regular basis....Man Utd themselves are no slouches when it comes to physicality, at one stage on Sunday it 10 v 1 in terms of fouls to Utd.....This notion that some fans have, that pretty football without the physcial side ....is for the birds.....it will take you nowhere.

This reference to "Brute Force" you make ,alludes to unconditional fouling and that is wide of the mark, to suit your narrative of passive DM work.....being a good passer of the ball, is not enough in that role, it requires a more defensive instinct to protect the back line and a more advanced approach to turning the ball over....Dougie has a habit on bundling players on the ball as opposed to slick tackling or intelligent reading of the game.

He is young and has time to learn, but lets not paper over the cracks, at present he is not the midfield General we are looking for to control football games......whether he will be in the future, requires a lot of work in my view.

The modern CDM's of culture have morphed, They still possess the ability to " win" the ball, but they do it with stealth, they don't bundle players off the ball, they carefully apply their physical contact and get a foot on the ball just enough to unhinge the opponent, and move the ball in to a close proximity collegue.

This brute force counter argument is a dead duck.....it is not Vinnie Jones we are looking for, give us a bit more credit than that.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by TRO

[Awol]

[TRO]

15 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Kante is " Small " but Kante is strong as an OX, athletic, dynamic and combative.

What he lacks in size, he makes up for in every other area, for that role.

Recently, he has been getting forward more too.

you are right JV  the size thing is a distraction, its about the attributes you describe.

size is mentioned inadvertently to highlight the power and physical presence required as it lends itself to bigger players.....but you are right smaller players can suffice.

blimey in their hey day, Bremner and Giles were a pair of rottweilers for Leeds.

[ender4]

7 hours ago, Awol said:

Good good.

Now he can stop pretending to be average and show us what his top game is

Edited May 11, 2021 by ender4

[TRO]

3 hours ago, AVFCDAN said:

Still really struggle to see what his attributes are to be honest.

Hess not particularly quick, his defensive pressing isn't amazing, he doesn't particularly have an eye for a pass and he also doesn't offer much in attacking areas.

Maybe his role doesnt allow him to shine in any of those areas but i think Sanson could take his place next seaosn.

I think we will continue to put 8's & 10's in that role, if we play Sanson there.

We need a dedicated no6 with the attributes applicable to that role.....its no good shoving 8's and 10's in there and asking them to do a job.

We keep signing or looking for 8's and 10's.....we seem to have a general blind spot for 6's.

Othere clubs seem to have no issue with it, its clear across the 20 clubs, the players they play there are appropriate.

Even in the academy we seem to gravitate towards wingers and ACM's......little time for the defensive qualities of the game....thats how it appears to me, anyway.

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

9 minutes ago, Awol said:

[Awol]

1 minute ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

I thought we’d lose him. 

[AVFCDAN]

1 hour ago, jimmygreaves said:

Strange isn't it because they we're fine before the enforced covid break... excelling even.

Now they're crap and we can't improve with them in the side.

I didn’t say they were crap but neither has had a great season in my opinion. If we want to push on from 11th-12th this season one of them needs to be replaced in my eyes.

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Not sure if I can 100 percent agree, Nakamba, with all his limitations, get's praised when he does the basics of the job well.

Most people are just trying to divert from the fact that some of us, just don't think Luiz is the most effective for the position currently, whatever fancy name/role we want to name the position.

As a few other posters, including myself have pointed out, this could have to do with the overall dynamic/balance of the midfield currently.

I'm not saying there aren't issues, or that Luiz is perfect, or that nobody who plays there ever gets praised.

I'm merely making the point that it's a position that is almost universally underrated, and I've noticed it a lot with Villa fans for as long as I can remember.

[M_Afro]

3 hours ago, AVFCDAN said:

Still really struggle to see what his attributes are to be honest.

Hess not particularly quick, his defensive pressing isn't amazing, he doesn't particularly have an eye for a pass and he also doesn't offer much in attacking areas.

Maybe his role doesnt allow him to shine in any of those areas but i think Sanson could take his place next seaosn.

I kind of know what you mean but he gets in the Brazil team and therefore he must have something. I think we have forgotten how good he was from the start of project re-start all the way up to the C-19 break. He maybe just needs some time away from it. I do wish he would cut out the needless fouls though. He is good for 2 or 3 every bloody match!

[TRO]

I would like to make my position clear with Douglas Luiz....I am not in favour of him leaving.

I want Dougie to develop his game.....If that means staying in his role, I want him to work on aspects of his game that make him a formidable modern CDM.

right now, he is not formidable, In my opinion......He has good bits of play, and not so good bits....we need more presence from him.

as for the abuse he is receiving from sections of the fan base, I abhor it.....It is small minded individuals who don't know a football from a corner flag....just know a bandwagon and a slagging off diatribe.

While Dougie gets his head down and works on his game ( in peace, free from social media ****) I will support him 110%

Come on Dougie, show us you can do it, like end of last season.

ps sorry if I'm being like the "repair shop" strip it down and build it back up.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by TRO

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

4 minutes ago, TRO said:

I would like to make my position clear with Douglas Luiz....I am not in favour of him leaving.

I want Dougie to develop his game.....If that means staying in his role, I want him to work on aspects of his game that make him a formidable modern CDM.

right now, he is not formidable, In my opinion......He has good bits of play, and not so good bits....we need more presence from him.

as for the abuse he is receiving from sections of the fan base, I abhor it.....It is small minded individuals who don't know a football from a corner flag....just know a bandwagon and a slagging off diatribe.

While Dougie gets his head down and works on his game ( in peace, free from social media ****) I will support him 110%

Come on Dougie, show us you can do it, like end of last season.

ps sorry if I'm being like the "repair shop" strip it down and build it back up.

 

We need to get him in the gym on the Matt Targett, Keinan Davis and Grealish program.

People under rate strength development and the necessity in this League IMO.

Targett has transformed as a player. Hopefully another summer of work will see a much improved Doug.

I don't want him gone by any stretch either.