Douglas Luiz

[QldVilla]

18 hours ago, TRO said:

could be.

I have said before, I think he is better suited further forward....it was his assist for Berties goal.....he is good at playing players in.

I look at Rice & Soucek as just lazy example, playing similar roles.....they are like chalk and cheese to me to Dougie.

I do get a tad embarrassed at times, moaning about him, because deep down, I don't think he is a CDM....He might develop in to one, but I have my doubts.

I think he is being played out of his natural position CAM, so my comments about him, could be inadvertently unfair....To compound the problem, I don't think John McGinn is a CDM either, so a double pivot for them, is not for me....it smacks of Accomodation, sorry...subsequently lack of Balance.

 

The only thing I would caveat with this is Doug's age. The top DM's don't reach their best until at least 25 years of age up, they are like a fine wine. I believe he could play Barkley's role in the side given the opportunity, but maybe where missing something, he just needs time to become the DM we are wanting?

[KenjiOgiwara]

4 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

If grealish stays wide then I think we need two midfielders to start ahead of Luiz.

And no I didn't mean two positions. As per my last post I think it's more important to increase depth in AM and CB, even with non starters, than it is to replace luiz

Fair enough. I think it's more important to have a solid functioning first team than having a great bench, but it's all arseholes or however the expression goes.

[lexicon]

4 hours ago, Stevo985 said:

If grealish stays wide then I think we need two midfielders to start ahead of Luiz.

And no I didn't mean two positions. As per my last post I think it's more important to increase depth in AM and CB, even with non starters, than it is to replace luiz

We've got Sanson already - just need a CAM 

[Stevo985]

42 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

Fair enough. I think it's more important to have a solid functioning first team than having a great bench, but it's all arseholes or however the expression goes.

But the point is the first team functions with Luiz. He’s not a liability. He’s a good player. 

If Jack or Konsa gets injured then we’re playing players like Ramsey and Hause and then the team doesn’t function 

[KenjiOgiwara]

5 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

But the point is the first team functions with Luiz. He’s not a liability. He’s a good player. 

If Jack or Konsa gets injured then we’re playing players like Ramsey and Hause and then the team doesn’t function 

I'd say Ramsey is doing rather well, but it's a bit more nuanced when it comes to Luiz. I like him. He has tons of potential. He's shown it. He has the right age to improve and so on. BUT he has NOT looked solid this season. He's average if anything, and his partnership with McGinn looks pretty average as well.

Our midfield is often not contributing and I honestly think a lot of points this season have been lost because our central midfield isn't able to compete in both quality and physicality.

And when I look at our first eleven, our GK, defence is rock solid. Watkins and Grealish is ace. But of the four remaining Luiz and McGinn are clearly the amongst them. Assuming Sanson is fit I'm not even sure they would be playing.

And I guess statistically it's more important to have a great first team that can play the majority of the season, then it is polishing the depth of the side, which will be far less exposed to the first team football.

But like I said, we need both. But I for one want a more imposing central midfielder. Whether that's in SJM or Luiz's role.

[TRO]

11 hours ago, QldVilla said:

The only thing I would caveat with this is Doug's age. The top DM's don't reach their best until at least 25 years of age up, they are like a fine wine. I believe he could play Barkley's role in the side given the opportunity, but maybe where missing something, he just needs time to become the DM we are wanting?

I accept that, and I do accept that reading the game, is an essential part of that role, so maturity is a major factor....I am just not yet convinced.

another consideration is, Jack will not hang around for all these forecasted stars to join him.

Its awkward that we have a gap between 25 year olds and 18 year olds that we can't bridge, due to such poor management of the past.....I'm sure we will find a way to circumnavigate it.

[TRO]

23 hours ago, sharkyvilla said:

I think if we prioritised a midfielder for his size then it would be further forward, using his power in the final third, giving the defenders something else to think about.  Dean seems to prefer a mopping-up kind of defensive midfielder who the goalkeeper can give the ball to.

I think Dean prefers wingers to create damage.....but the centre of midfield is a waste land by comparison,when we are without the ball, it needs to be strengthened.

[TRO]

7 hours ago, lexicon said:

We've got Sanson already - just need a CAM 

I think Sanson,Luiz and McGinn is a CM or a CAM.....We are fooling ourselves we have CDM's.

We are playing players in the Pivot who have Attacking Nous, not defensive Nous.....that is one of our issues.

[Indigo]

16 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think Sanson,Luiz and McGinn is a CM or a CAM.....We are fooling ourselves we have CDM's.

We are playing players in the Pivot who have Attacking Nous, not defensive Nous.....that is one of our issues.

I think Sanson was actually signed because he offers exactly that as well as being able to contribute offensively. He would sometimes play as part of a double pivot for Marseilles and very much excelled in terms of defensive contributions. For reference, the below is from FBRef, which is a handy website that provides scouting reports on players vs counterparts that also play in their position across the top 5 leagues. Outside of some quite extreme exceptions Sanson actually compares more than favourably and has generally excellent defensive statistics. Think we're nowhere close to have seen quite what he can offer us to be honest, through a combination of settling in mid-season and unfortunately injury too.

 

Edited May 12, 2021 by Indigo

[QldVilla]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I accept that, and I do accept that reading the game, is an essential part of that role, so maturity is a major factor....I am just not yet convinced.

another consideration is, Jack will not hang around for all these forecasted stars to join him.

Its awkward that we have a gap between 25 year olds and 18 year olds that we can't bridge, due to such poor management of the past.....I'm sure we will find a way to circumnavigate it.

I agree. I think we still need to buy the DM to give Luiz more time but also to share the load of the season. 

Jack may leave at some point for trophies, simply because we are still 2-3 transfer windows away from where we need to be as a squad to compete for the Top 6. We don’t get to spend silly money like Man City did to become a Top 4 club overnight due to FFP.

Im interested to see who we buy this summer as IMO, we need a RW, DM, AM, but we also need competition for the CD pairing and back up for LB. Does Watkins need competition? When we’re working on a budget, the money only goes so far when buying quality.

[MrBlack]

4 hours ago, Indigo said:

I think Sanson was actually signed because he offers exactly that as well as being able to contribute offensively. He would sometimes play as part of a double pivot for Marseilles and very much excelled in terms of defensive contributions. For reference, the below is from FBRef, which is a handy website that provides scouting reports on players vs counterparts that also play in their position across the top 5 leagues. Outside of some quite extreme exceptions Sanson actually compares more than favourably and has generally excellent defensive statistics. Think we're nowhere close to have seen quite what he can offer us to be honest, through a combination of settling in mid-season and unfortunately injury too.

 

Suggests to me he's another Luiz. Both are an offensive partner for a more defensive minded cdm in the double pivot to me. 

Not sure where McGinn fits in..., but we really do need a more capable cdm that doesn't get dribbled past as much as these three seem to.

[peterw]

Luiz was our best player after the restart last season, and up until the Covid break that we had he was one of our best performers week in week out this season. That he's had a rough run of games in terms of form shouldn't detract from the excellent performances that we have seen him capable of. I also disagree about his best position as I think he is ideally suited to CDM - that he also has an eye for a pass shows the levels he can get to. He needs extra help in there and a little more quality so that he can just get his head down and get on with his job. He's one player who definitely needs the summer break and then to come back fully recharged.

I think he'll be firing next season and we'll have put him on a new contract in the summer. 

[Laughable Chimp]

He was never that good post covid lockdown. He had like a couple of games right after the lockdown where he performed very well in at a time when the rest of the team including Jack were performing poorly. But people are hyping up those couple of games way too much. I distinctly remember arguing with someone who insisted he was the most in form player in the league. I'm sorry but not even close. You'd think he was single handedly winning games for us. Hell, Hourihane was more instrumental to us during that post lockdown run considering he was directly involved in 70℅ of our goals during that run and he gets treated like crap on here, nothing like the praise this guy gets. He was mediocre the rest of that season and he's been mediocre this season. 

.

Edited May 13, 2021 by Laughable Chimp

[peterw]

Well these stats suggest that he did improve.

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/douglas-luizs-performances-since-the-league-restarted-data-analysis-statistics

Edited May 13, 2021 by peterw

[Laughable Chimp]

12 minutes ago, peterw said:

Well these stats suggest that he did improve.

https://totalfootballanalysis.com/article/douglas-luizs-performances-since-the-league-restarted-data-analysis-statistics

I never said he didn't improve. I said that his improvement wasn't as good as some made him out to be. Also that his improvement was largely contained within that couple of games.

Also I don't really agree with a lot of that article anyway. It reads like how I would write an essay when I realize I already have a conclusion and I'm trying to bullshit my arguments to reach that conclusion. 

[Demitri_C]

11 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I never said he didn't improve. I said that his improvement wasn't as good as some made him out to be. Also that his improvement was largely contained within that couple of games.

Also I don't really agree with a lot of that article anyway. It reads like how I would write an essay when I realize I already have a conclusion and I'm trying to bullshit my arguments to reach that conclusion. 

I disagree. Luiz was fantastic after lock down. One of the main reasons stayed up. He was dominating in midfield in most matches for us.

[lexicon]

He's had to play with an out-of-form/shape/fitness McGinn and a non-existent-most-of-the-time Barkley. Deserves some slack. 

He's is 100% unequivocally good enough for us as a CDM. 

[sne]

Seem to be a misconception that the deepest midfielder in a 3 man midfield has to be the defensive specialist or a anchor man. We don't play with a defensive deep sitting midfielder, people might want us to, but we don't.

Pirlo (no other comparison) sat at the deep of the Juventus and Italy midfield 3 and dictated play, Pjanic did the same for Juve years later. There are countless probably much better examples but you get the point.

I'm fairly certain that Smith is not asking Luiz to do the Ndidi job. The issue for us is that the guys in front of Luiz are not doing their part while Luiz also been below his best. We lose the ball far too easy now with Grealish out and our issues at RW meaning we are seldom on the front foot for long. We haven't got a midfield build for defending deep and we don't have the speed to be counter attacking specialist. Don't get why people are expecting us to be either of those things.

[Risso]

1 minute ago, lexicon said:

He's had to play with an out-of-form/shape/fitness McGinn and a non-existent-most-of-the-time Barkley. Deserves some slack. 

He's is 100% unequivocally good enough for us as a CDM. 

I don't think he is, his tackling is really sub-standard. It's not what he should be used for anyway though, he'd be far better in a more offensive position, his range of passing is great.

[peterw]

59 minutes ago, Risso said:

I don't think he is, his tackling is really sub-standard. It's not what he should be used for anyway though, he'd be far better in a more offensive position, his range of passing is great.

You don't need to be a tackler to be a cdm as much as you need to anticipate and be able to read a game.  The job is more about protection and covering gaps than it is about being able to tackle. if you look at Dennis Mortimer he was a reader and someone who anticipated rather than tackled but he was an ideal number 6. Also, in the modern game I don't think anyone receives the ball from Martinez and shifts it better than him. One of the oft overlook things from this season is how well we transition the ball from the defence and Luiz rarely loses it or misplaces it.