Wesley Moraes

[nick76]

33 minutes ago, TRO said:

I just happen to think scoring goals is a difficult thing to do.....so you use every weapon and opportunity, that you can.....so heading goals is a must for me, in conjunction with the usual methods of feet.

To say, we are not set up that way, is in my opinion another way of saying we are a limited team, then.....goal scoring from headers has been a major feature of football since time began.

Only today, you see the importance of a Harry Kanes header, to break the deadlock of a stubborn team in Albania.....its crucial to be able to do it, not an added extra.

I understand that it has its detractors, but while it is still legal, we have to exploit it.....so many goals come from headers, to eliminate ourselves from such a fundamental element of the game, is worrying to say the least.

But strikers rarely have everything apart from our own Pongo Waring who did have everything.  Even just googling stats to back my own viewing down the years backs up this and you can have issues with most strikers

Kane doesn’t have pace which is seen as vital for strikers these days but Kane does alright without it, like Sheringham in his day.  

Salah is not good at heading, scoring only 5 of his 92 league goals with his head and a poor right foot with 11 goals.  Vardy has only 13 of his 115 league goals with his head.  I imagine Thierry Henry also wasn’t a prolific header of goals.

So they would be limited under your definition but some of our best strikers in years.

Edited March 28, 2021 by nick76

[Five Ken McNaughts]

Regarding Wes’s aerial prowess, or lack thereof, our new habit of playing goal-kicks short or out to the flanks has got to help him. The way he used to jump under the long ball, claim a shove, then get upset when it wasn’t given... well, it was pretty painful viewing at times (and by “pretty” I mean “very”).

With that in mind, I can understand those suggesting the no.10 role, even if he’s never been tried there before (Thierry Henry was a winger – these things are not impossible). The hardest thing in the world seemed to be getting Wes on the ball and facing goal, and no.10 would give him a lot more chance of that.

For some reason a few moments in the pre-season friendly at Walsall stick in my head – Wes sitting a little deeper, receiving and moving the ball very slickly in the middle of the pitch.

Granted, the weak shot is not ideal for that position, but even allowing for that I’m intrigued by the idea. Let’s face it, the season is now essentially a bunch of friendly matches before a mid-table finish. If I ever saw us trying a 4-2-3-1 with a 3 of Jack-Wes-Traoré I would definitely sit a bit closer to the TV. Might be an unmitigated disaster, but literally nothing to lose.

[Spoony]

44 minutes ago, Five Ken McNaughts said:

Regarding Wes’s aerial prowess, or lack thereof, our new habit of playing goal-kicks short or out to the flanks has got to help him. The way he used to jump under the long ball, claim a shove, then get upset when it wasn’t given... well, it was pretty painful viewing at times (and by “pretty” I mean “very”).

With that in mind, I can understand those suggesting the no.10 role, even if he’s never been tried there before (Thierry Henry was a winger – these things are not impossible). The hardest thing in the world seemed to be getting Wes on the ball and facing goal, and no.10 would give him a lot more chance of that.

For some reason a few moments in the pre-season friendly at Walsall stick in my head – Wes sitting a little deeper, receiving and moving the ball very slickly in the middle of the pitch.

Granted, the weak shot is not ideal for that position, but even allowing for that I’m intrigued by the idea. Let’s face it, the season is now essentially a bunch of friendly matches before a mid-table finish. If I ever saw us trying a 4-2-3-1 with a 3 of Jack-Wes-Traoré I would definitely sit a bit closer to the TV. Might be an unmitigated disaster, but literally nothing to lose.

I think I’ve forgotten how I much I hated watching Wes. Never seen such a big player player fall over, dive and complain so much. 

[Tommo_b]

8 hours ago, Spoony said:

I think I’ve forgotten how I much I hated watching Wes. Never seen such a big player player fall over, dive and complain so much. 

To be fair if you’re not used to defenders using their muscle against you, you’re going to end up on the ground a lot!

I’d complain a lot too if I kept finding myself being knocked over and feeling like the ref wasn’t doing his job and it understanding the toughness of the league. 

Bare in mind it was a new league for him, used to playing in Brazil and Belgium, not the most physical of leagues.

I imagine he will get used to the physicality in a years time, the injury obviously set him back. 

[hippo]

12 hours ago, TRO said:

I don't really understand, what we was scouting,then.....its like a goal keeper, not very good with crosses.....its fundamental IMO.

You only had to see Harry Kanes Header today to know, how important for a No9 to have that ability....and how it affects a game....how it changes a game.

If you are a No9, players look for you.....and mainly, its in the air.

I don't see how he can make his mark with us, without that ability.

We needed players and in particular a striker. Hence Wesley and hence the big fee. Had we been promoted automatically I doubt we would have purchased Wesley. 

[sparrow1988]

12 hours ago, TRO said:

I understand that it has its detractors, but while it is still legal, we have to exploit it.....so many goals come from headers, to eliminate ourselves from such a fundamental element of the game, is worrying to say the least.

What is your opinion on slavery?

Edited March 29, 2021 by sparrow1988

[hippo]

8 hours ago, Spoony said:

I think I’ve forgotten how I much I hated watching Wes. Never seen such a big player player fall over, dive and complain so much. 

TBF that was only in his early starts.  He did cut that out after a few games.

Biggest problem for me was that he looked totally like a fish out of water.

[Robbie09]

18 minutes ago, hippo said:

TBF that was only in his early starts.  He did cut that out after a few games.

Biggest problem for me was that he looked totally like a fish out of water.

Like many young overseas players he needed time to adjust to the PL. 

The game at Turf Moor when he got injured he was dominating a centre half partnership that have been  and still are on the fringes of the England team. 

[DaveAV1]

9 hours ago, Spoony said:

I think I’ve forgotten how I much I hated watching Wes. Never seen such a big player player fall over, dive and complain so much. 

You’ve not seen much of Harry Kane then?

[lexicon]

2 hours ago, hippo said:

TBF that was only in his early starts.  He did cut that out after a few games.

Biggest problem for me was that he looked totally like a fish out of water.

Almost like he'd never played the English game before... 

[Vive_La_Villa]

I have to admit I was at the stage where I wanted Davis to start because his performances were so bad. But against Burnley he was having a really good game and it might have been a turning point for him. 

[hippo]

32 minutes ago, lexicon said:

Almost like he'd never played the English game before... 

He hadn't. 

If he looked close - you could put it down to adjustment. But imo he looked way out of his depth. Throw in a major injury - a £33m guy signed in his place....he's pretty much done here.

[TRO]

14 hours ago, nick76 said:

But strikers rarely have everything apart from our own Pongo Waring who did have everything.  Even just googling stats to back my own viewing down the years backs up this and you can have issues with most strikers

Kane doesn’t have pace which is seen as vital for strikers these days but Kane does alright without it, like Sheringham in his day.  

Salah is not good at heading, scoring only 5 of his 92 league goals with his head and a poor right foot with 11 goals.  Vardy has only 13 of his 115 league goals with his head.  I imagine Thierry Henry also wasn’t a prolific header of goals.

So they would be limited under your definition but some of our best strikers in years.

I think you are drifting off the point somewhat....I said Wesley was limited, not the players you mention.

When a No 9 is 6'3 its unusual not to have heading ability....is my point......of course there are more diminuitive strikers who are not blessed with that stature, so they cut their cloth accordingly.

There will always be examples of world class talent who rely on other things other that aerial power......but Vardy as one example can head the ball too.

Wesley is not blessed with the non - aerial skills of some of the players you mention, so in such circumstances having aerial ability, would help his standing as a striker.

Ps Robert Lewandowski has everything as does Harry Kane IMO.....Probably Erling Haarland too.

Edited March 29, 2021 by TRO

[nick76]

27 minutes ago, hippo said:

He hadn't. 

If he looked close - you could put it down to adjustment. But imo he looked way out of his depth. Throw in a major injury - a £33m guy signed in his place....he's pretty much done here.

Simply not true! Just your opinion, he’s going to be around.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, sparrow1988 said:

What is your opinion on slavery?

should never have happened.....but it did.

[Vive_La_Villa]

6 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think you are drifting off the point somewhat....I said Wesley was limited, not the players you mention.

When a No 9 is 6'3 its unusual not to have heading ability....is my point......of course there are more diminuitive strikers who are not blessed with that stature, so they cut their cloth accordingly.

There will always be examples of world class talent who rely on other things other that aerial power......but Vardy as one example can head the ball too.

Wesley is not blessed with the non - aerial skills of some of the players you mention, so in such circumstances having aerial ability, would help his standing as a striker.

Ps Robert Lewandowski has everything as does Harry Kane IMO.....Probably Erling Haarland too.

This got me looking at some stats and 16% of Lewandoskis goals are from headers which is extremely high.  Kane is 18%!  Haaland not so many at 6% but he has a long way to go. 
 

Love a good headerer of the ball. Something I don’t think we’ve had since Angel. I had high hopes Samatta was that player but it wasn’t to be. 

[nick76]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I think you are drifting off the point somewhat.

When a No 9 is 6'3 its unusual not to have heading ability....is my point......of course there are more diminuitive strikers who are not blessed with that stature, so they cut their cloth accordingly.

There will always be examples of world class talent who rely on other things other that aerial power......but Vardy as one example can head the ball too.

Wesley is not blessed with the non - aerial skills of some of the players you mention, so in such circumstances having aerial ability, would help his standing as a striker.

Ps Robert Lewandowski has everything as does Harry Kane IMO.....Probably Erling Haarland too.

Not drifting off point at all.  You put a point out and I shown why it was wrong, your come back was that because he’s taller than those top premiership strikers he should score more headers.

So at what height should they definitely have heading ability compared to when they should be let off? 6ft 2, or 1...or just below 6ft?

Then you throw three of the best strikers in the world as an example, great let’s buy them for £20m like we did Wes.

We brought Wes knowing he isn’t the greatest header and we don’t play a way for either Wes or Ollie currently that is a bombardment of crosses so it’s not a problem.  Of course I would like that option but currently we don’t play like that last season for Wes or this season for Ollie.

[TRO]

36 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

This got me looking at some stats and 16% of Lewandoskis goals are from headers which is extremely high.  Kane is 18%!  Haaland not so many at 6% but he has a long way to go. 
 

Love a good headerer of the ball. Something I don’t think we’ve had since Angel. I had high hopes Samatta was that player but it wasn’t to be. 

it is rare for even a good header of the ball to supercede his goals on the ground or with his feet......its more to the point that they can score with their head,when the situation presents itself.

Tony Hateley was one of the few who was better in the air than on the ground.....Wyn Davies, another.

The point I was trying to make, was a unit as a No9 is usually good in the air.

Edited March 29, 2021 by TRO

[Vive_La_Villa]

13 minutes ago, TRO said:

it is rare for even a good header of the ball to supercede his goals on the ground or with his feet......its more to the point that they can,when the situation presents itself.

Tony Hateley was one of the few who was better in the air than on the ground.

The point I was trying to make, was a unit as a No9 is usually good in the air.

I agree with you TRO

[TRO]

26 minutes ago, nick76 said:

Not drifting off point at all.  You put a point out and I shown why it was wrong, your come back was that because he’s taller than those top premiership strikers he should score more headers.

So at what height should they definitely have heading ability compared to when they should be let off? 6ft 2, or 1...or just below 6ft?

Then you throw three of the best strikers in the world as an example, great let’s buy them for £20m like we did Wes.

We brought Wes knowing he isn’t the greatest header and we don’t play a way for either Wes or Ollie currently that is a bombardment of crosses so it’s not a problem.  Of course I would like that option but currently we don’t play like that last season for Wes or this season for Ollie.

You have shown me nothing.

Nick, this is getting silly now....you can disagree, to your hearts content, but your suppositions are way off.....I mentioned those players, so you know who they are, if I mentioned some obscure player, you would baulk at the point, based on not knowing who my examlpe was( you have done the same to argue your point).....you have turned my point, in to your own definition of it.....what you say I allude to, is wrong, its more about what you think, dressing it up to say, its what I think.....isn't that a strawman?

The height it takes to be dominant in the air.....I guess you will agree, that 5'8/5'9 is kinda difficult.

You are now off on a tangent of buying the best strikers in world football, where has that come from?.....You.

let me remind you of my point, before you disappear more into  your own interpretation of it......I said "at 6'3 and No 9 you would think he would be decent in the air".....from that you have managed to concoct a compendium of alternative counter points.......you should be on "countdown" you would do well.

 

Edited March 29, 2021 by TRO