Racism Part two

[ml1dch]

11 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Yes the government are doing a shit job no doubt, but its so complex, people need to wake the **** up.

Something that might help people "wake up" to the complexities of the issue would be the Government not suggesting that it's actually very simple and just needs a three word slogan slapping on the top of it. 

[nick76]

 

 

[Stevo985]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

 

 

I think there's a difference between racism and inequality.

I would imagine (and hope) that the whiteness of that squad would be more down to lack of opportunities for women of colour in those areas rather than racism. Maybe one breeds the other.

I wasn't suggesting you were saying otherwise, just thinking out loud

[chrisp65]

It would be interesting to see the whole set up, not just that picture of 30 people.

It does look very white, but is that just the luck of the draw at the time of the photo? What was last year’s squad like? What do the reserves or the academy or the kids clubs look like?

My local amateur team set up has over 500 players, I can’t imagine how many will be in the Arsenal set up.

 

[mjmooney]

There are all sorts of strange demographic factors (and racial stereotyping) when it comes to sport participation. 

It does seem odd that black women are under-represented in football, when it's very much not the case in the men's game. It's not as if black women are not traditionally 'sporty' - just look at track and field athletics, for example. 

[nick76]

30 minutes ago, Stevo985 said:

I think there's a difference between racism and inequality.

I would imagine (and hope) that the whiteness of that squad would be more down to lack of opportunities for women of colour in those areas rather than racism. Maybe one breeds the other.

I wasn't suggesting you were saying otherwise, just thinking out loud

I didn’t have a view to be honest, I just posted it because it interested me in the current age of discussion on this topic and thought it might spark further discussion.

[Xann]

Walk the streets here and look at the faces, then cycle and look at other riders.

You didn't see many black women in the second category, though there are more now than there used to be.

Electric scooter uptake better represents the local ethnic split.

[magnkarl]

Meanwhile, UK and France are reporting a record number of antisemitic incidents as a lot of groups seem to have issues separating the Jewish communities in the West from the state of Israel.

Quote

In London, where there have been several large-scale protests in support of Palestinians in Gaza, the Met said it had recorded 408 anti-Semitic offences between October 1 and 27.

That compares to just 28 in the same period last year, the force said on Friday.

At my granddaughter's school there's now police dressed in civilian clothes at the bus stop, at the train station and at most places where the pupils gather, and in the last week alone there's been 6 arrests of people shouting all sorts of obscene things at kids aged 6-12.

Incidentally, in one of the arrests one guy was holding a STWC banner while shouting abuse Oswald Mosley would be proud of. The conspiracy nuts seem to have been infected by the thoughts of George Galloway and Chris Williamson.

Edited October 31, 2023 by magnkarl

[Seat68]

I suspect the vaccination, communicable diseases, virology, 15 minute cities, and debanking experts are now expert in Palestinian and Israeli politics.

[veloman]

On 23/10/2023 at 17:20, Xann said:

Walk the streets here and look at the faces, then cycle and look at other riders.

 

I have often been asked why there aren'y more blacks in bike races considering what good sportsmen they can be. I suggest that those of West African origin are too heavily muscled for road racing (Tour de France, Vuelta etc). There are a number of East African cyclists riding in the pro peleton; however those of  West African origin have certainly made their mark on the Track - including a French World Champion. Road racing is more about power to weight than outright muscular power. There was a West Indian bloke in a Wolverhampton club who used to race in the same events as me on a Thursday evening; he had a fine physique  -muscles in his spit - but as soon as we came to hil he went off the back. Don't think there is any racism involved in that sport. There are of course exceptions but in the UK more often of mixed race including a great rider from Burton on Trent.

Edited October 31, 2023 by veloman

[luckyeddie]

7 hours ago, veloman said:

I have often been asked why there aren'y more blacks in bike races considering what good sportsmen they can be. I suggest that those of West African origin are too heavily muscled for road racing (Tour de France, Vuelta etc). There are a number of East African cyclists riding in the pro peleton; however those of  West African origin have certainly made their mark on the Track - including a French World Champion. Road racing is more about power to weight than outright muscular power. There was a West Indian bloke in a Wolverhampton club who used to race in the same events as me on a Thursday evening; he had a fine physique  -muscles in his spit - but as soon as we came to hil he went off the back. Don't think there is any racism involved in that sport. There are of course exceptions but in the UK more often of mixed race including a great rider from Burton on Trent.

I think it's also down to money. The British tend to dominate sports where they can price out 99% of the worlds population (cycling, yachting, equestrian).

Also, I read somewhere that football academies are based outside large catchment areas, so young black girls were having difficulty getting to the academies, so more affluent girls were getting the opportunities.

Edited October 31, 2023 by luckyeddie

[markavfc40]

Just to put a bit of context into that I am about to post. I started working for my current employer almost a year ago and my work is around 50% site based and 50% office based and the 50% office based work I do from home ( I am a highways engineer). Over the last year I have probably met up with collages collectively for meetings around 10 times. The team I work with there are 10 other people and they have all worked together for years. 

Today I went into the office for a meeting with four colleagues, including my manager. At the end of the meeting the subject of a local hotel being used to house asylum seekers arose. I then had to sit through some of the worst racism from everyone else in the room I have probably ever heard. To give a flavour of it one person commented (and the rest agreed) that they'd love to have a political party to vote for who said they would get the navy to shoot out of the water any boats crossing the channel with immigrants on , another commented that what this country needs is a Hitler type to take over and a bit of ethnic cleansing and another felt we (I assume he meant white people) would end up being slaves to the immigrants. 

I have heard some mild racism (compared with the above) from some of my colleagues before but today I sat there gobsmacked. I have got to be honest though I didn't give my thoughts which would have been the complete opposite from them. Instead I stayed dumb and now I feel really bad about that and feel that I should have spoke up even though my opinions would have gone down like a lead balloon. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing.

What would others have done in the above situation and what should I do now?

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by markavfc40

[Seat68]

1 minute ago, markavfc40 said:

Just to put a bit on context into that I am about to post. I started working for my current employer almost a year ago and my work is around 50% site based and 50% office based and the 50% office based work I do from home ( I am a highways engineer). Over the last year I have probably met up with collages collectively for meetings around 10 times. The team I work with there are 10 other people and they have all worked together for years. 

Today I went into the office for a meeting with four colleagues, including my manager. At the end of the meeting the subject of a local hotel being used to house asylum seekers arose. I then had to sit through some of the worst racism from everyone else in the room I have probably ever heard. To give a flavour of it one person commented (and the rest agreed) that they'd love to have a political party to vote for who said they would get the navy to shoot out of the water any boats crossing the channel with immigrants on , another commented that what this country needs is a Hitler type to take over and a bit of ethnic cleansing and another felt we (I assume he meant white people) would end up being slaves to the immigrants. 

I have heard some mild racism (compared with the above) from some of my colleagues before but today I sat their gobsmacked. I have got to be honest though I didn't give my thoughts which would have been the complete opposite from them. Instead I stayed dumb and now I feel really bad about that and feel that I should have spoke up even though my opinions would have gone down like a lead balloon. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing.

What would others have done in the above situation and what should I do now?

 

Its a tough position to be in, I have been there and kept quiet. I read the room and felt it would be detrimental for me to be that guy. Since then I have worked in IT for close to 20 years and pulled people up on racism, and as I have got further into my career and form of racism is not tolerated. That said its an industry filled with colleagues from Asia and in my instance, from Israel, and a smaller percentage from the UK.

[luckyeddie]

4 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

Just to put a bit on context into that I am about to post. I started working for my current employer almost a year ago and my work is around 50% site based and 50% office based and the 50% office based work I do from home ( I am a highways engineer). Over the last year I have probably met up with collages collectively for meetings around 10 times. The team I work with there are 10 other people and they have all worked together for years. 

Today I went into the office for a meeting with four colleagues, including my manager. At the end of the meeting the subject of a local hotel being used to house asylum seekers arose. I then had to sit through some of the worst racism from everyone else in the room I have probably ever heard. To give a flavour of it one person commented (and the rest agreed) that they'd love to have a political party to vote for who said they would get the navy to shoot out of the water any boats crossing the channel with immigrants on , another commented that what this country needs is a Hitler type to take over and a bit of ethnic cleansing and another felt we (I assume he meant white people) would end up being slaves to the immigrants. 

I have heard some mild racism (compared with the above) from some of my colleagues before but today I sat their gobsmacked. I have got to be honest though I didn't give my thoughts which would have been the complete opposite from them. Instead I stayed dumb and now I feel really bad about that and feel that I should have spoke up even though my opinions would have gone down like a lead balloon. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing.

What would others have done in the above situation and what should I do now?

 

I wouldn't beat yourself up about how you handled the situation, I don't think you could have argued your point against people with that attitude. When you are surrounded by people with views as extreme as this there is no way you can talk rationally to them. Just use the experience to know who to avoid talking to in the future.

[tonyh29]

50 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I have got to be honest though I didn't give my thoughts which would have been the complete opposite from them. Instead I stayed dumb and now I feel really bad about that and feel that I should have spoke up even though my opinions would have gone down like a lead balloon.

not sure how I would have reacted in your position , a work place shouldn't be a place for racist bollocks , but equally putting your head on the chopping block at work is never a good idea , even if morally you know you should .

There is a lot of casual racism in our  (non work) WhatsApp group , I tend to ignore that for the same reason , but did call one out the other day and suddenly everyone started backtracking on the original comments .. so dunno , maybe it does need people to speak up ... there's not been any since then , but that could just be a coincidence

its in a different context  , but now you kinda know how I feel with Boltics stuff .. I have to sit there with mates hearing loads of stuff that is bollocks and I don't agree with  , but instead I sit there and say nothing for the sake of the group and friendship .. and it bugs me cause they all probably think I'm one of their like minded lefty yogurt knitter kin  

 

 

Edited November 21, 2023 by tonyh29

[Davkaus]

10 minutes ago, tonyh29 said:

 .

There is a lot of casual racism in our WhatsApp group , I tend to ignore that for the same reason , but did call one out the other day and suddenly everyone started backtracking on the original comments .. so dunno , maybe it does need people to speak up ... there's not been any since then , but that could just be a coincidence

 

 

 

Yeah there's two ways it goes if @markavfc40 had called it out, they double down and get aggressive, which I think is quite unlikely in the workplace, or they rapidly backtrack, "it's just a joke", "not all of them", etc

I can absolutely understand not calling it out if you're blindsided, so this is no criticism Mark. I like to think I would, but equally I can imagine just reacting with stunned disbelief at what I was hearing. 

Personally I'd be planning my exit, and citing this meeting as a reason for leaving in my resignation notice sent to my boss, CCing in HR, but easily said from the outside.

[tonyh29]

10 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

Yeah there's two ways it goes if @markavfc40 had called it out, they double down and get aggressive, which I think is quite unlikely in the workplace, or they rapidly backtrack, "it's just a joke", "not all of them", etc

I can absolutely understand not calling it out if you're blindsided, so this is no criticism Mark. I like to think I would, but equally I can imagine just reacting with stunned disbelief at what I was hearing. 

Personally I'd be planning my exit, and citing this meeting as a reason for leaving in my resignation notice sent to my boss, CCing in HR, but easily said from the outside.

for clarity , the WhatsApp group is non work related  as it wasn't clear in my post .. I don't use WhatsApp for work , its not professional imo , but I am a little bit stuck in the past  

[omariqy]

Difficult one as meeting that kind of thing with aggression never really ends up with the right result. I had a similar incident when someone started talking about reparations and why black people were looking for a handout. I took some time to explain the impact institutional racism can have on the next generation in terms of lack of opportunity and movement across the social ladder in a constructive way. It sort of worked but appreciate doesn’t always.

[Jon]

1 hour ago, markavfc40 said:

Just to put a bit on context into that I am about to post. I started working for my current employer almost a year ago and my work is around 50% site based and 50% office based and the 50% office based work I do from home ( I am a highways engineer). Over the last year I have probably met up with collages collectively for meetings around 10 times. The team I work with there are 10 other people and they have all worked together for years. 

Today I went into the office for a meeting with four colleagues, including my manager. At the end of the meeting the subject of a local hotel being used to house asylum seekers arose. I then had to sit through some of the worst racism from everyone else in the room I have probably ever heard. To give a flavour of it one person commented (and the rest agreed) that they'd love to have a political party to vote for who said they would get the navy to shoot out of the water any boats crossing the channel with immigrants on , another commented that what this country needs is a Hitler type to take over and a bit of ethnic cleansing and another felt we (I assume he meant white people) would end up being slaves to the immigrants. 

I have heard some mild racism (compared with the above) from some of my colleagues before but today I sat there gobsmacked. I have got to be honest though I didn't give my thoughts which would have been the complete opposite from them. Instead I stayed dumb and now I feel really bad about that and feel that I should have spoke up even though my opinions would have gone down like a lead balloon. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing.

What would others have done in the above situation and what should I do now?

 

Hmmm.  You plus 4 overt racists. I don't think you're going to get much mileage from interjecting tbh. It's easier in a non work setting to engage in progressive discussion on the matter, but I'd probably have done the same as you in that situation   

Edited November 21, 2023 by Jon
Spelling

[blandy]

59 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

I have heard some mild racism (compared with the above) from some of my colleagues before but today I sat there gobsmacked. I have got to be honest though I didn't give my thoughts which would have been the complete opposite from them. Instead I stayed dumb and now I feel really bad about that and feel that I should have spoke up even though my opinions would have gone down like a lead balloon. I just couldn't believe what I was hearing.

What would others have done in the above situation and what should I do now?

 Can I ask a question? How bright/intelligent are these people? Are they men/women/both - Reason I ask is it sounds like they probably don't think for themselves and you can often get leaders and followers who just kind of join in, because, well, the others say that stuff, and they want to fit in. Who's the ringleader, if anyone?

The relatively few times that anyone has done racism in front of me, I've always called it out (except from when I was a child). But...and It's not the same thing, here's something that happened to a colleague after he did something analogous. He was moved from our team to a new job on a nearby site, to lead a small team. He soon found out that they were all, every single one, of the 6 or so people basically defrauding the company by clocking on, then going home, then coming back and clocking off at the end of the day - taking it in turns, pretty much (this was before Covid). So he gathered them together, said "this has to stop, I don't know how long you've been doing it, but stop it now and it goes no further".

The next day all of his team raised a complaint against him for bullying and made up a load of lies about him on the complaint. So he entered a disciplinary process. While it was all getting investigated it affected his mental health badly and because the process is so slow he really suffered. Eventually it got to a hearing and due to support from his old bosses (the ones I worked for) he was cleared, but was moved to yet another job. No action was taken against the actual people doing the fraud. His new, new team obviously found out about him having been "a snitch" and they behaved appallingly towards him - so it really ruined his life for a. good couple of years.

So there are definite risks to the "good" path to take, sadly.

I guess you could ask a few questions next time, like "do you think Ukrainian refugees should be shot, too?" and kind of take it from there "what about Afghan interpreters who helped the British army?" and so on, over time. "Should the interpreters be allowed to bring their child or wife?". etc.

"What should happen to the process once asylum seekers get here? - should it be speeded up?". Just ask them, but don't give an opinion yourself, necessarily.

Or if you feel able to, have a word with someone  within the company HR team about "hypothetically, if someone had an issue with something, what's the process for raising the issue and what's the protection for doing so"

or TL;DR don't beat yourself up, you almost certainly did the wise thing at the time. It's working out what next that's the harder part.