Sam-AVFC Posted September 4, 2023 Share Posted September 4, 2023 27 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: As if it was that easy? Of course it isn't easy. What big societal issues are easy to fix? I'd be surprised to anyone arguing with hindsight against sorting public healthcare, universal suffrage, abolition of slavery, child labour laws & education etc. because they weren't easy to fix. We have so many big issues now because many voters don't care about sorting out problems in the long-term, they will vote for the guy that promises instant gratification. Whether that be a few pence off the pound in taxes. Brexit being offered as an easy fix to many problems. Giving them a bogeyman they can actually see out and about to blame problems on. Etc. I'd still prefer they invested the time and money in considering and processing applications, employment training and creating taxpaying members of society. Right now the effort is being put in to delaying applications, creating long-term detention at a huge cost in hotels and barges that companies will make a fortune from. Rwanda. Even forgetting the long-term cost savings in sorting it, we're probably also spending more in the short-term moving in the current direction. The same with homelessness, but it's the installation of anti sleeping measures and making sure they are removed from areas where they are unsightly. Which more provision of housing and training would also do. Deterrents don't work in the face of desperation or necessity. The same applies to many of the big issues we are facing in this country at the moment. I still think we as a society should be better than 'it's not easy, so I'll look the other way'. I'd also prefer they at least had the courage to withdraw from our international obligations if they don't intend to abide by them, rather than pretending they are but refusing to accept any definition of a refugee as valid. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 10 hours ago, foreveryoung said: As if it was that easy? Yeah i know its not easy. But instead of wasting money on shit like PPE we didnt need, more cameras for ULEZ, investing money on failing projects, money on putting immigrants in hotels (which is costing a future) giving mps pay rises every year (that none of them deserve) im sure the money could be utilised to help those looking to work, or support those who need work. Get them off the streets and help they rebuild their lives. There is enough work out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted September 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5, 2023 11 hours ago, Demitri_C said: We have so many gaps in terms of work here. Its mad we can't give these people incentives/nhs numbers to get into work and spread them out throughout the UK Its the same with homeless. Get them into work ans help them What do you mean by "these people"? Immigrants? I imagine the vast vast majority of people who come here would absolutely love to start working as soon as possible. It's probably one of the main reasons they come here. The homeless is a more complex issue, but getting immigrants into work won't be the immigrants' fault (in the vast majority of cases) 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 15 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: What do you mean by "these people"? Immigrants? I imagine the vast vast majority of people who come here would absolutely love to start working as soon as possible. It's probably one of the main reasons they come here. The homeless is a more complex issue, but getting immigrants into work won't be the immigrants' fault (in the vast majority of cases) It's very idealistic to think like that. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 25 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: What do you mean by "these people"? Immigrants? I imagine the vast vast majority of people who come here would absolutely love to start working as soon as possible. It's probably one of the main reasons they come here. The homeless is a more complex issue, but getting immigrants into work won't be the immigrants' fault (in the vast majority of cases) Jesus stevo your 1st line is absolutely ridiculous Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted September 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5, 2023 40 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Jesus stevo your 1st line is absolutely ridiculous Why? I was just asking who you were referring to? As in did you mean immigrants or homeless people? Your post talked about both Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted September 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5, 2023 50 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: It's very idealistic to think like that. It's really not 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Why? I was just asking who you were referring to? As in did you mean immigrants or homeless people? Your post talked about both Your post didnt clarify that. you said what do you "mean by these people" as if im labelling something else. But to answer your question i think and hope that both people coming from outside the uk who want to come to work and better themselves as well as homeless people who also want that same goal, are given opportunities as we have alot of work available here for them. Provide training courses, help those that dont speak the language, help those that have learning difficulties. Ill happily pay abit more tax if the end goal was to improve the nation and give everyone opportunities Edited September 5, 2023 by Demitri_C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted September 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Demitri_C said: Your post didnt clarify that. you said what do you "mean by these people" as if im labelling something else. I didn't mean that at all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Stevo985 said: It's really not It kind of is idealistic. It's my line of thought too, I'm not having a go. The thing is, there are a lot of people claiming to be refugees who are not, but the system (home office) is just not willing or capable of efficiently processing them. It's not the majority, but it's around 30% who are not granted protection at the initial stage. Of those that appeal, there's a good rate of eventual approval (43% of the 30%, or 12.9% of the total, making 82.9% success overall). So if you take the overall figures, just over 1 in 6 are not deemed to be refugees at all. But it takes forever to go through that whole process and there's a massive backlog. Given the total number of asylum seekers coming to the UK, that 1 in 6 is a lot of people (over 13,000 in the past year). Compared to the population of the UK, it's tiny of course, but for councils having to house them with severely limited budgets and availability of suitable accommodation and language services and medical services and all the rest it puts a strain on various towns and cities that they are not resourced to handle. And then when the residents, including the larger number of genuine cases, are faced with those strains, it just creates tensions, which are further exacerbated by people with an agenda, whether that be Farage or even further right wing numpties. The situation is going to get worse, as more and more people either through war, climate, natural disaster or economics move to the wealthier or safer nations, including the UK. The system's broken and can't cope at the moment, never mind the future. stats from the refugee council, a refugee support body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted September 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5, 2023 Just now, blandy said: It kind of is idealistic. It's my line of thought too, I'm not having a go. The thing is, there are a lot of people claiming to be refugees who are not, but the system (home office) is just not willing or capable of efficiently processing them. It's not the majority, but it's around 30% who are not granted protection at the initial stage. Of those that appeal, there's a good rate of eventual approval (43% of the 30%, or 12.9% of the total, making 82.9% success overall). So if you take the overall figures, just over 1 in 6 are not deemed to be refugees at all. But it takes forever to go through that whole process and there's a massive backlog. Given the total number of asylum seekers coming to the UK, that 1 in 6 is a lot of people (over 13,000 in the past year). Compared to the population of the UK, it's tiny of course, but for councils having to house them with severely limited budgets and availability of suitable accommodation and language services and medical services and all the rest it puts a strain on various towns and cities that they are not resourced to handle. And then when the residents, including the larger number of genuine cases, are faced with those strains, it just creates tensions, which are further exacerbated by people with an agenda, whether that be Farage or even further right wing numpties. The situation is going to get worse, as more and more people either through war, climate, natural disaster or economics move to the wealthier or safer nations, including the UK. The system's broken and can't cope at the moment, never mind the future. I wasn't disagreeing with any of this. The vast majority of people who come here, come here for a better life which very much includes working. They'd love to get a job and start their new life. It's other factors that stop this from happening. Basically it's not the immigrants who can't be arsed to work that is the problem. It's the current system holding things up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted September 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: Basically it's not the immigrants who can't be arsed to work that is the problem. It's the current system holding things up. Yeah. Like I say, I have the same thought on this as you. I'm trying to make the point in terms of how people think - some (like you or me are naturally inclined to the "positive" side, but others to the negative - the people who game the system, and if there are (there are) people gaming the system, then seeing me or you as idealistic is a take I can understand from their perspective. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted September 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, blandy said: Yeah. Like I say, I have the same thought on this as you. I'm trying to make the point in terms of how people think - some (like you or me are naturally inclined to the "positive" side, but others to the negative - the people who game the system, and if there are (there are) people gaming the system, then seeing me or you as idealistic is a take I can understand from their perspective. There are people gaming the system, there always will be. But they're a minority. The implication from the post I was replying to (That said these people should be offered incentives to get into work) was that immigrants are all sat around doing **** all because they can't be arsed to work 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted September 5, 2023 1 minute ago, Stevo985 said: There are people gaming the system, there always will be. But they're a minority. The implication from the post I was replying to (That said these people should be offered incentives to get into work) was that immigrants are all sat around doing **** all because they can't be arsed to work Yeah, exactly. It's the muddling of refugees/asylum seekers and immigrants as all just one set of people with the same circumstances, when it clearly isn't. There are immigrants from all over, whether the EU, the US, Aus, the sub-continent, China, Hong-Kong...everywhere - the vast majority here either to work, or with a partner/family who work(s). The refugees, afforded asylum have had a terrible time of it, and are desperate for safety, security and a good life. Asylum seekers not yet processed are legally unable to work, by law. Economic "refugees" are more of a mix. Some just want to get jobs and more money and work to send money home, or get on with life. Others are criminals, slavers, exploiters, pimps, sweat shoppers and so on. It's a minority. Unfortunately the bad ones give the throbbers something to throb about and stir up racism and resentment. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 59 minutes ago, Stevo985 said: I didn't mean that at all Ok cool Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 5, 2023 Author Share Posted September 5, 2023 @Stevo985 I think me you and @blandy are all on the same page with this subject 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
foreveryoung Posted September 5, 2023 Share Posted September 5, 2023 2 hours ago, Stevo985 said: It's really not Maybe in your world, but these are all different people from different places/experiences. You can't just give them an NHS card (like some one said), a couple of weeks learning the language and stick them behind the till at Asda. Yes the government are doing a shit job no doubt, but its so complex, people need to wake the **** up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevo985 Posted September 5, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted September 5, 2023 7 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: Maybe in your world, but these are all different people from different places/experiences. You can't just give them an NHS card (like some one said), a couple of weeks learning the language and stick them behind the till at Asda. Yes the government are doing a shit job no doubt, but its so complex, people need to wake the **** up. I don't think that contradicts anything I said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 5, 2023 Moderator Share Posted September 5, 2023 3 minutes ago, foreveryoung said: people need to wake the **** up. Maybe. If you (or anyone) had to list what you think the specific problems are, as individual items that need addressing what would that look like? And maybe what would each solution be? For example, some posters have said “asylum seekers are not permitted to work and there are loads of vacancies, they should be allowed to work and pay taxes and support themselves while they are waiting for the outcome of their application” Others have said “there are no routes for people to apply for asylum in the UK when they are in France, if we set up a place(s) there, then it would vastly reduce the small boat numbers” and so on. So how do you see it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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