Manchester Arena Explosion

[Brumerican]

 

6 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

Even though it goes against all christian values?

What on earth are Christian values? 

Edited May 24, 2017 by Brumerican

[Chindie]

I would admit to being a little frustrated with Muslim figures coming out and going 'that isn't Islam'.

Unfortunately, it is. It's a tiny element, and 99.99% of Muslims are like everyone else (with varying degrees of ridiculous rules to follow, such is 'faith'). But it is there. The guys doing it act in the name of Allah, whatever bastardised version they follow, and they're making the overwhelming majority of other guys look bad. 

Islam has skin in the game. They have a need to fight back to their faith being dragged through the mud by a bunch of nutters. Condemn it all you want, you need to win the intellectual war or things aren't going to improve. These words removed are making you look bad.

Of course I'd much prefer you all came to your senses (along with all the bible bashers, gurdwara vistors and the like) and bin the whole lot of it, but failing that... fellas... you need to be actively fighting this. Engaging in out-thinking the poisonous elements of the religion, winning young heads over, visibly rail against Wahhabi and Salifist interpretations. If that means you have to start to reform the faith entirely, do it. Start that movement to reform.

[Dodgyknees]

4 minutes ago, Brumerican said:

 

What on earth are Christian values? 

Hopefully not mine. Eat, drink, shag, watch films, visit Villatalk.

[Dodgyknees]

4 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I would admit to being a little frustrated with Muslim figures coming out and going 'that isn't Islam'.

Unfortunately, it is. It's a tiny element, and 99.99% of Muslims are like everyone else (with varying degrees of ridiculous rules to follow, such is 'faith'). But it is there. The guys doing it act in the name of Allah, whatever bastardised version they follow, and they're making the overwhelming majority of other guys look bad. 

Islam has skin in the game. They have a need to fight back to their faith being dragged through the mud by a bunch of nutters. Condemn it all you want, you need to win the intellectual war or things aren't going to improve. These words removed are making you look bad.

Of course I'd much prefer you all came to your senses (along with all the bible bashers, gurdwara vistors and the like) and bin the whole lot of it, but failing that... fellas... you need to be actively fighting this. Engaging in out-thinking the poisonous elements of the religion, winning young heads over, visibly rail against Wahhabi and Salifist interpretations. If that means you have to start to reform the faith entirely, do it. Start that movement to reform.

This is why I feel we need to take a different direction when it comes to tackling this issue. I really feel we need to start looking at things at schools, start educating people - all people, about ALL groups who want this 'race war' to continue. We also need to focus our attention on the media and put some laws in place to stop the utter hatred they spew, with the lies which are usually followed by 200 words on page 6. And we also need to look at how we deal with things on an international level.

[villaglint]

11 minutes ago, DK82 said:

This is why I feel we need to take a different direction when it comes to tackling this issue. I really feel we need to start looking at things at schools, start educating people - all people, about ALL groups who want this 'race war' to continue. We also need to focus our attention on the media and put some laws in place to stop the utter hatred they spew, with the lies which are usually followed by 200 words on page 6. And we also need to look at how we deal with things on an international level.

Unfortunately it's in Theresa Mays teams manifesto to do just the opposite. Though shalt not touch the media with a forty foot long barge pole. 

Agree with the rest though and I'd love something to be done about the print media. I think there was a window of opportunity and unfortunately it's passed. For now.

Edited May 24, 2017 by villaglint

[Dodgyknees]

3 minutes ago, villaglint said:

Unfortunately it's in Theresa Mays teams manifesto to do just the opposite. Though shalt not touch the media with a forty foot long barge pole. 

Agree with the rest though and I'd love something to be done about the print media. I think there was a window of opportunity and unfortunately it's passed. For now.

We won't be getting a Leveson 2 enquiry if the Tories get back in. Typically, they were wobbling and Labour were getting closer before this all happened. 

[Chindie]

US media has leaked that the bombers family told security officials about him being a threat.

[Awol]

4 minutes ago, Chindie said:

US media has leaked that the bombers family told security officials about him being a threat.

This after the Home Secretary told BBC this morning that the UK was 'irritated' with US leaking, that they'd got the message and it would stop.

Starting to feel like someone in the States is engaged in sabotage, though who or to what end I've no idea. 

Also come out via them (I think) that the bomber's dad was an active jihadist in the 90's, which might explain him doing a bunk from Libya to the UK.

[Genie]

8 minutes ago, Chindie said:

US media has leaked that the bombers family told security officials about him being a threat.

Wow, if true that puts a whole new complexion on this.

[Demitri_C]

10 minutes ago, Chindie said:

US media has leaked that the bombers family told security officials about him being a threat.

What the hell are they playing at?  

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, Awol said:

This after the Home Secretary told BBC this morning that the UK was 'irritated' with US leaking, that they'd got the message and it would stop.

Starting to feel like someone in the States is engaged in sabotage, though who or to what end I've no idea. 

Also come out via them (I think) that the bomber's dad was an active jihadist in the 90's, which might explain him doing a bunk from Libya to the UK.

I can understand why they wouldn't want this to come out. Heavily suggests someone **** up. Or the entire system **** up, which starts to point fingers where many would rather they didn't go.

The group his dad belonged to seems to jump around as to whether they're ok or not depending on our position on Gaddafi. They were anti-Gaddafi, hence leaving under his regime.

[LakotaDakota]

I know people hate The Sun / Murdoch but they have started a fundraising page for the victims families & started it off with £100,000 of their own.

https://www.justgiving.com/fundraising/TogetherWithManchester

[Xann]

1 minute ago, LakotaDakota said:

I know people hate The Sun

They're trying to stem a Liverpool style boycott which I've seen mentioned in a couple of places today.

[Paddywhack]

4 hours ago, mykeyb said:

Of the 3000 plus on the current watchlist how many do you think are 100% innocent?

 

3 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

32.87%

But I have you in the guilty pile, you're on the next Chinook. I can't tell you why, it would compromise my sources and risk more lives. You are guilty.

We've got to be seen to do something visible, quick and simple. I don't apologise for being tough, I don't apologise for protecting democracy.

986.1 in case anybody was wondering.

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, Chindie said:

I would admit to being a little frustrated with Muslim figures coming out and going 'that isn't Islam'.

Unfortunately, it is. It's a tiny element, and 99.99% of Muslims are like everyone else (with varying degrees of ridiculous rules to follow, such is 'faith'). But it is there. The guys doing it act in the name of Allah, whatever bastardised version they follow, and they're making the overwhelming majority of other guys look bad. 

Islam has skin in the game. They have a need to fight back to their faith being dragged through the mud by a bunch of nutters. Condemn it all you want, you need to win the intellectual war or things aren't going to improve. These words removed are making you look bad.

Of course I'd much prefer you all came to your senses (along with all the bible bashers, gurdwara vistors and the like) and bin the whole lot of it, but failing that... fellas... you need to be actively fighting this. Engaging in out-thinking the poisonous elements of the religion, winning young heads over, visibly rail against Wahhabi and Salifist interpretations. If that means you have to start to reform the faith entirely, do it. Start that movement to reform.

I do agree with most of that post, but there's a bit of an element of unreality here . . . most people are busy getting by day-to-day. Turning yourself into Muslim Martin Luther sounds like a fairly time-intensive task. 

[chrisp65]

10 minutes ago, Chindie said:

I can understand why they wouldn't want this to come out. Heavily suggests someone **** up. Or the entire system **** up, which starts to point fingers where many would rather they didn't go.

The group his dad belonged to seems to jump around as to whether they're ok or not depending on our position on Gaddafi. They were anti-Gaddafi, hence leaving under his regime.

and ain't that our problem with the whole mess

We have a very fluid understanding of freedom fighter / terrorist, going all the way back to whatever date you care to name, not least, Afghanistan in any of the last few centuries.

[Chindie]

Just now, HanoiVillan said:

I do agree with most of that post, but there's a bit of an element of unreality here . . . most people are busy getting by day-to-day. Turning yourself into Muslim Martin Luther sounds like a fairly time-intensive task. 

I'm not expecting every Omar, Mohammad and Ali to turn out, but Imams, community leaders, etc, respected figures within their communities globally can help turn the tide. I'm sure they already do something, they'd have to be morons not to, but they obviously need to do more.

[blandy]

1 hour ago, mykeyb said:

Innocent until proven guilty.....yes. How many of the 3000 on watchlists are there "without" good reason. I would imagine that it constitutes more than just googling how to make a bomb.

Quote

A student who was arrested under the Terrorism Act and kept in custody for six days has been awarded £20,000 compensation by the police.

Rizwaan Sabir, 22, who was studying for a master's at Nottingham University, was arrested after downloading a terrorist manual for his research on al Qaeda.

Police arrested him on the university campus on May 14, 2008 on suspicion of possessing extremist material.

Mr Sabir was arrested after downloading an edited version of the The Al Qaeda Training Manual from a US government website for his postgraduate research, his solicitor said.

He was held for six days before he was released without charge.

After the cash award was announced, Mr Sabir said he was pleased to have cleared his name after a battle lasting more than three years.

A police spokesman confirmed a sum of £20,000 had been agreed to settle Mr Sabir's civil case.

'We stand by the fact that the arrest, detention and obtaining of a warrant of further detention were all perfectly legal, proportionate and necessary in the circumstances as they were in 2008,' a statement said.

'The matter was settled without admission of liability save that the force admitted that one brief search of Mr Sabir and his vehicle carried out in February 2010 was the result of a mistaken belief on the part of the officers involved. This was admitted in November 2010 and the force apologises for this search.

....A statement issued today by Bhatt Murphy Solicitors on Mr Sabir's behalf said the manual was 'well established as a document used for research in the field of counter-terrorism policy', was referred to in standard textbooks and was widely available.

The statement said Mr Sabir brought proceedings against Nottinghamshire Police for false imprisonment and breaches of the Race Relations Act 1976 and the Human Rights Act 1998.

He claimed that false information on Nottinghamshire Police records, including a clear but unfounded assertion that Mr Sabir had been convicted of a terrorist offence, had led to Mr Sabir being subject to numerous stops and searches.

Mr Sabir said the police 'have been forced to account for the wrong they did to me.

'But I am one of the lucky ones. I cannot forget all those other innocent people like me who have suffered at the hands of the police but do not have the chance or means to vindicate their names.'

Michael Oswald of Bhatt Murphy said: 'Clearly, the police have a difficult and important job to do in their counter-terrorism role, however, they must nonetheless act within the law and must be held to account when they do not.

'Through his remarkable effort and fierce determination over the last three years, Mr Sabir has been able to hold the police to account for their failings.'

From the Snowflakey Daily Heil

[Chindie]

2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

and ain't that our problem with the whole mess

We have a very fluid understanding of freedom fighter / terrorist, going all the way back to whatever date you care to name, not least, Afghanistan in any of the last few centuries.

Indeed.

It's also why I have long advocated the change in use of the term terrorist, to describing a methodology, rather than the more partisan use we are familiar with.

I'm not that familiar with the group this bloke's dad was affiliated with, whether they are/were the archetypical terrorist or more rebel fighter, or what their particular cause was.

[Guest av1]

Police investigating a whole network according to BBC breaking news.

Quote

Police say they are investigating a "network" over the Manchester attack, as a police officer is confirmed to be among the victims.

 

Edited May 24, 2017 by av1