Manchester Arena Explosion

[Chindie]

You did seem to suggest that being 'pro-active' re. infringing people's civil rights was a-OK.

Which would obviously be my issue. The exact nature of those rights being infringed is neither here nor there.

[Davkaus]

13 minutes ago, mykeyb said:

Lets raise tax to a minimum of 30% and give the money to the police and intelligence agencies so they have the required manpower to tackle this issue properly.

I'm not sure if you're serious.

[colhint]

18 hours ago, colhint said:

I think whoever forms the next government should give a higher public profile to the Muslim Council of Britain. People say that 99% of Muslims are decent people, I think it's more like 99.99% are very decent people. I want to hear the MCB have a voice. I rarely hear about them in the media. In fact I think the only times I hear about them is when they have to apologise for an arsehole who claims their faith. I do remember a while back a local mosque raised money when Jewish graves were desecrated, hardly mentioned if I recall. 

I think if they have a higher platform they could highlight the many of the good things done by Muslims in this country. Unfortunately at the moment all we hear at the moment is the terrible things done by a tiny, tiny minority.

I mentioned this yesterday, I have been thinking about it some more.

I'm sure the MCB condemn terrorism but we never here from them. I think we should invite them on QT, Andrew Marr, Andrew Neil shows. So they get exposure. I know what Paul Nuttal looks like, I could probably recognise someone else from the party, I wouldn't be able to name them. The point is They get air time and people know what they stand for, whether you agree with them or not. At the moment I don't really know what the MCB stand for, I could probably guess, peace integration and being good citizens. And I certainly couldn't recognise them.  I think raising their profile would really help. If they were to have that exposure maybe the TV channels could give them a little air time at times like this, along the lines of This is a party political broadcast on behalf of blah blah blah. With a narrative along the lines of we condemn the violence, we are peaceful people, These people do not represent islam, We pray for those suffering, we thank the emergency services etc.

[omariqy]

Hello all

To be honest I’m at a bit of a loss. I just can’t believe someone would target innocent kids like that and it is really upsetting. I am sick of it all. I am sick of the vicious cycle of hate and violence. One day I read school kids being bombed in Syria, the next kids on our own doorstep being murdered for no reason.  It’s never ending and I just don’t see what anyone will do to stop it.  There’s hate being preached from all sides and to be honest I can understand some of it. Imagine if all you see is persons from a certain religion killing innocent people day in day out. Or certain countries bombing and destroying your hometown and killing innocent people for greed and power. It’s just too much now. The purveyors of violence do not care for human lives they only care for chaos. Out of chaos they can achieve their goals of power and greed – on both sides. The stupid thing is that we all buy into it. We want revenge and swift action. We want justice. However, we need to seriously think about how we achieve it. I don’t pretend to know the answers only that the current strategy can’t continue. Prevent doesn’t work. Our foreign policy doesn’t work. Supplying arms to Saudi doesn’t work. Hash-tags don’t work. Carrying on as normal doesn’t work.

I see reactions that frustrate me but that I ultimately understand. People saying ‘muslims should do more and you should drive them out of your community’. To be honest this is nonsense. I must’ve been to 50 or so mosques in the Uk during my life and not once, not once have I heard anything resembling hate. It just doesn’t happen. It happens online, in person or abroad. We need to find out why they are committing such heinous acts and pumping out the same old drivel of ‘they hate our way of life’ is not going to help. May and co say those things so that they can carry on as normal and sell arms to their mates for huge £.  So that they can gain power in key regions. What we should be asking is what can we do to stop this happening again? Why are 99% of Muslims normal, law-abiding citizens and the 1% not.  What differs in their mentality and experiences? Is it a reaction? Is it mental illness? Is it something more deep rooted? I don’t know honestly and in reality it is a mixture of foreign policy, mental illness, problems in Islamic countries (historically and currently), lack of education etc. One thing I know is that it is not Islam. You just cannot kill innocent children and justify it. There is nothing in the religion to justify it. Even in war you cannot kill children.  I don’t know. I am waffling a bit now but seriously I am just fed up of it all. For me it’s two fold. Firstly, seeing the pain and suffering of the innocent people impacted by this atrocity and secondly seeing what I love and see as beautiful (my religion) being reduced to being seen as some death cult, when in reality it is the complete opposite.

 

[mykeyb]

11 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

I'm not sure if you're serious.

You are right, lets make it 35%.

[mykeyb]

13 minutes ago, Chindie said:

You did seem to suggest that being 'pro-active' re. infringing people's civil rights was a-OK.

Which would obviously be my issue. The exact nature of those rights being infringed is neither here nor there.

Where?

[Dodgyknees]

4 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Hello all

To be honest I’m at a bit of a loss. I just can’t believe someone would target innocent kids like that and it is really upsetting. I am sick of it all. I am sick of the vicious cycle of hate and violence. One day I read school kids being bombed in Syria, the next kids on our own doorstep being murdered for no reason.  It’s never ending and I just don’t see what anyone will do to stop it.  There’s hate being preached from all sides and to be honest I can understand some of it. Imagine if all you see is persons from a certain religion killing innocent people day in day out. Or certain countries bombing and destroying your hometown and killing innocent people for greed and power. It’s just too much now. The purveyors of violence do not care for human lives they only care for chaos. Out of chaos they can achieve their goals of power and greed – on both sides. The stupid thing is that we all buy into it. We want revenge and swift action. We want justice. However, we need to seriously think about how we achieve it. I don’t pretend to know the answers only that the current strategy can’t continue. Prevent doesn’t work. Our foreign policy doesn’t work. Supplying arms to Saudi doesn’t work. Hash-tags don’t work. Carrying on as normal doesn’t work.

I see reactions that frustrate me but that I ultimately understand. People saying ‘muslims should do more and you should drive them out of your community’. To be honest this is nonsense. I must’ve been to 50 or so mosques in the Uk during my life and not once, not once have I heard anything resembling hate. It just doesn’t happen. It happens online, in person or abroad. We need to find out why they are committing such heinous acts and pumping out the same old drivel of ‘they hate our way of life’ is not going to help. May and co say those things so that they can carry on as normal and sell arms to their mates for huge £.  So that they can gain power in key regions. What we should be asking is what can we do to stop this happening again? Why are 99% of Muslims normal, law-abiding citizens and the 1% not.  What differs in their mentality and experiences? Is it a reaction? Is it mental illness? Is it something more deep rooted? I don’t know honestly and in reality it is a mixture of foreign policy, mental illness, problems in Islamic countries (historically and currently), lack of education etc. One thing I know is that it is not Islam. You just cannot kill innocent children and justify it. There is nothing in the religion to justify it. Even in war you cannot kill children.  I don’t know. I am waffling a bit now but seriously I am just fed up of it all. For me it’s two fold. Firstly, seeing the pain and suffering of the innocent people impacted by this atrocity and secondly seeing what I love and see as beautiful (my religion) being reduced to being seen as some death cult, when in reality it is the complete opposite.

 

I think we need a completely different approach. I don't quite know what that is yet, but I have some things in my head which I feel we could do - but without knowing all the facts it is hard to really put a plan into action. 

I think it's a bit of a circle, the problems. War generates hate, the media generate hate, hate turns into action, action turns into war, war generates hate, media generate hate... People in this country are fed one side of it and that side is told as fact. These people have also been brought up being told that having an opinion is the most important thing and that free speech comes before everything. 

So.. with that we have media preaching hate, people believing the hype, people thinking that because this is their opinion it comes above any proven fact and that they can shout it out because it is free speech. Western values eh?

We need to go grassroots with this and educate people, but I am afraid I cannot see any change in attitude for decades.

[Davkaus]

If we're bumping it up because 22 people have died, we may as well take it up to 90% tax so we can finally do something about all of the deaths due to road accidents and air pollution.  

[Jareth]

Well they are achieving their aim, it is absolutely terrifying to know that the bomber was a mule and that there is a bomb maker out there. Just cannot see this being stopped before somewhere else is hit and soon, even today.  Time to stay put and stay away from crowds or public transport, if that is possible until this one is sorted.

[mykeyb]

9 minutes ago, omariqy said:

Hello all

To be honest I’m at a bit of a loss. I just can’t believe someone would target innocent kids like that and it is really upsetting. I am sick of it all. I am sick of the vicious cycle of hate and violence. One day I read school kids being bombed in Syria, the next kids on our own doorstep being murdered for no reason.  It’s never ending and I just don’t see what anyone will do to stop it.  There’s hate being preached from all sides and to be honest I can understand some of it. Imagine if all you see is persons from a certain religion killing innocent people day in day out. Or certain countries bombing and destroying your hometown and killing innocent people for greed and power. It’s just too much now. The purveyors of violence do not care for human lives they only care for chaos. Out of chaos they can achieve their goals of power and greed – on both sides. The stupid thing is that we all buy into it. We want revenge and swift action. We want justice. However, we need to seriously think about how we achieve it. I don’t pretend to know the answers only that the current strategy can’t continue. Prevent doesn’t work. Our foreign policy doesn’t work. Supplying arms to Saudi doesn’t work. Hash-tags don’t work. Carrying on as normal doesn’t work.

I see reactions that frustrate me but that I ultimately understand. People saying ‘muslims should do more and you should drive them out of your community’. To be honest this is nonsense. I must’ve been to 50 or so mosques in the Uk during my life and not once, not once have I heard anything resembling hate. It just doesn’t happen. It happens online, in person or abroad. We need to find out why they are committing such heinous acts and pumping out the same old drivel of ‘they hate our way of life’ is not going to help. May and co say those things so that they can carry on as normal and sell arms to their mates for huge £.  So that they can gain power in key regions. What we should be asking is what can we do to stop this happening again? Why are 99% of Muslims normal, law-abiding citizens and the 1% not.  What differs in their mentality and experiences? Is it a reaction? Is it mental illness? Is it something more deep rooted? I don’t know honestly and in reality it is a mixture of foreign policy, mental illness, problems in Islamic countries (historically and currently), lack of education etc. One thing I know is that it is not Islam. You just cannot kill innocent children and justify it. There is nothing in the religion to justify it. Even in war you cannot kill children.  I don’t know. I am waffling a bit now but seriously I am just fed up of it all. For me it’s two fold. Firstly, seeing the pain and suffering of the innocent people impacted by this atrocity and secondly seeing what I love and see as beautiful (my religion) being reduced to being seen as some death cult, when in reality it is the complete opposite.

 

Children dying is the worst attrocity, whether they are coming out of a concert in Manchester or sitting by a target in Syria. Nobody should think that is acceptable.

[mykeyb]

4 minutes ago, Davkaus said:

If we're bumping it up because 22 people have died, we may as well take it up to 90% tax so we can finally do something about all of the deaths due to road accidents and air pollution.  

What price for your health and freedom....

[Chindie]

1 hour ago, mykeyb said:

Tell that to Olivia Campbells Mother. Whats the alternative if we arent to be pro-active?

Here @mykeyb.

'Whats the alternative if we aren't to be pro-active' would to me certainly imply you're all for the 'ex Cobra chair's suggestion we start infringing rights of the few for the many.

[Dodgyknees]

1 hour ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

Playing devil's advocate, but in these situations, there's no smoke without fire, it won't be the case that innocent people will be getting snatched off the streets, rather people who are considered a threat based on evidence. Yes, this is a massive slippery slope, but I feel like we are a handful of suicide attacks away from this outcome. 

It's not exactly palatable, or acceptable, among a lot of voters to simply have to make do with suicide bombing in the UK being a 'fact of life'. 

It is a step towards that though. And also, Guantanamo Bay is one thing which creates hate within young muslims (British and not) - as far as I am aware and from things I have read (IMO). So doing this would just add to that. We need to get in at the root and talk/educate/help. I would imagine a lot get access to things through the internet. Look at how many believe idiots like Paul Joseph Watson and then imagine a young British Muslim finding a similar character calling for them and showing what our wars/media have been doing to young Muslims elsewhere. Match meet petrol.

[mykeyb]

1 minute ago, Chindie said:

Here @mykeyb.

'Whats the alternative if we aren't to be pro-active' would to me certainly imply you're all for the 'ex Cobra chair's suggestion we start infringing rights of the few for the many.

So me saying we should be pro-active can only mean I agree with his solution even though I explicitly say I am not sure that it is a solution either............OK

[chrisp65]

8 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Well they are achieving their aim, it is absolutely terrifying to know that the bomber was a mule and that there is a bomb maker out there. Just cannot see this being stopped before somewhere else is hit and soon, even today.  Time to stay put and stay away from crowds or public transport, if that is possible until this one is sorted.

Don't forget to put plywood over your windows.

Hopefully you have enough dry goods in storage to wait this one out.

Personally, I just bought a ticket for a weekender music festival.

**** 'em. I'll die dad dancing.

 

[Chindie]

Just now, mykeyb said:

So me saying we should be pro-active can only mean I agree with his solution even though I explicitly say I am not sure that it is a solution either............OK

You explicitly said deportation may not be the answer.

Our initial exchange was based around the suggestion to 'infringe the civil rights of a few to protect those of the many'.

[mykeyb]

Just to clarify to all the posters that seem to want to go on a little attack.

I dont think what was suggested is an answer and have said so this morning on 4 or 5 occassions. I posted about it because I was suprised by what someone who has chaired COBRA meetings would suggest as measures he thought should be brought in and indeed maybe if attacks continued. I thought it was of interest and thats why I posted it here.

I do think we need to be pro-active. If that means giving more resources to the police etc then that needs to be looked at. If that means that the top suspects on the watchlist need to be brought in and investigated then so be it. Perhaps we need to be talking to the muslim communities and ask them for their opinions how radicalisation can be tackled.

[Dodgyknees]

I hate sharing a name with this scumbag

 

[StefanAVFC]

Just as his 'agency' gets WH press credentials.

Sickening.

[Demitri_C]