Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[pas5898]

55 minutes ago, bickster said:

Surely the age boundary for feeling Russian is much higher than that though? I was in Lithuania and Latvia at the end of the Soviet era. Glasnost / Perestroika times. The Baltic countries had just been allowed to fly their flags a year or so before. Even back then it wasn't easy to find someone my age at the time or even slightly older that felt Russian. Old people back then sure, they were the ones going back into the reopened orthodox churches (we quickly learned that hats on men inside churches is disrespectful  )

From that experience I imagine that the age boundary is more like 65 or so. Is that not correct?

I can only talk from my family and friends in Lithuania.

75+ = Russian

50+ = Basically Russian

<40 = Speak Lithuanian + English, Hate Russian and Putin

40-50 are probably more confused than a Small Heath fan at their sisters wedding. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

During the cold war the USSR gave out a consistent message about the West.  The people were told that the mega rich had a wonderful lifestyle but the average person was living well below the standards of the average Soviet.    This picture was reinforced by only reporting the excesses of the rich and the worst of the poverty.   The average Soviet thought they had a better life than Westerners because they only had to queue for 2 hours to get bread whilst most Westerners couldn't even afford bread.  

I can understand why elderly Russians want to go back the USSR days.   They have seen Russia transformed by Western influences into a country of mega rich and poor.   They think they were better off.   They weren't.   

 

[HKP90]

2 hours ago, pas5898 said:

I can only talk from my family and friends in Lithuania.

75+ = Russian

50+ = Basically Russian

<40 = Speak Lithuanian + English, Hate Russian and Putin

40-50 are probably more confused than a Small Heath fan at their sisters wedding. 

Brilliant. 

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

During the cold war the USSR gave out a consistent message about the West.  The people were told that the mega rich had a wonderful lifestyle but the average person was living well below the standards of the average Soviet.    This picture was reinforced by only reporting the excesses of the rich and the worst of the poverty.   The average Soviet thought they had a better life than Westerners because they only had to queue for 2 hours to get bread whilst most Westerners couldn't even afford bread.  

I can understand why elderly Russians want to go back the USSR days.   They have seen Russia transformed by Western influences into a country of mega rich and poor.   They think they were better off.   They weren't.   

 

It’s not just people being brainwashed. For many people the USSR days were much better than the chaos that followed.
People had full employment, universal healthcare, universal childcare, free education, low cost housing, a state pension etc. 

When that collapsed in the 90s it was a free-for-all. Alcoholism and drug dependency went through the roof as unemployment was suddenly a thing. Domestic violence quickly follows in those conditions. 

It’s not crazy that the older generations preferred Russia how it was in the 70s to how it became in the 90s and even today.

Holding the US responsible for why it all got taken away from them is where the propaganda kicks in. 

[fruitvilla]

4 hours ago, pas5898 said:

I can only talk from my family and friends in Lithuania.

75+ = Russian

50+ = Basically Russian

<40 = Speak Lithuanian + English, Hate Russian and Putin

40-50 are probably more confused than a Small Heath fan at their sisters wedding. 

Thanks ... pas  ... my family and friends in Latvia:

50+ = bilingual Latvian and Russian ... but on the Latvian side of things.
50- = bilingual Latvian and English. One married a Latvian-Russian so they are tending to be trilingual, though the Russian does not speak English or at least very poorly, a bit like the average Brummie. 

In Riga, in the markets, the vendors jabber amongst themselves in Russian, but happily switch to Latvian when spoken to in Latvian.

So I suspect it does depend on a family's heritage where they lie.

I have only visited Latvia, and never lived there.

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

A thread worth reading. Thoughts of General Zaluzhny

 

[ender4]

Quote

Ukraine war: Kyiv says Russia planning major ground offensive in new year

In a series of briefings to the media, Ukraine's Defence Minister Oleksii Reznikov said evidence was mounting that Russia, which has suffered a series of battlefield losses, plans a broad new offensive.

He speculated this could occur in February when half of the 300,000 troops conscripted by Russia in October to support the Ukraine war would complete training.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63995244

[The Fun Factory]

23 hours ago, LondonLax said:

It’s not just people being brainwashed. For many people the USSR days were much better than the chaos that followed.
People had full employment, universal healthcare, universal childcare, free education, low cost housing, a state pension etc. 

When that collapsed in the 90s it was a free-for-all. Alcoholism and drug dependency went through the roof as unemployment was suddenly a thing. Domestic violence quickly follows in those conditions. 

It’s not crazy that the older generations preferred Russia how it was in the 70s to how it became in the 90s and even today.

Holding the US responsible for why it all got taken away from them is where the propaganda kicks in. 

Well from the mid 70s onwards the USSR living standard started to stagnate and go backwards. That was why Gorby tried to liberalise the economy to improve living conditions. However he opened the Pandora's box and the whole thing collapsed like a pack of cards in about 5 years. And Putin has spent about the last 20 years trying to reverse it. Bit like using Uncle Rico's time machine.

[bickster]

3 minutes ago, ender4 said:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-63995244

They probably are but there's absolutely nothing to suggest they'll have the remotest success.

Reznikov is painting as dark a picture as possible to porocure as many foreign arms deals as possible

[tinker]

On 14/12/2022 at 12:43, pas5898 said:

Generally speaking, it's the other way round. In Lithuania / Latvia / Estonia and parts of Ukraine.

Older than 45 - remember the soviet union, speak Russian only take in Russian TV / propaganda

Younger than 45 - Tend not to speak Russian, all speak English, more European and definitely anti Russia. 

She has cousins in Ukraine - the younger ones were fighting, the older ones were quite pleased at the though of Soviet Rule again.

Her parents are 100% pro Russia and would welcome Russian rule in Lithuania for example.

Bald and bankrupt on YouTube shows a great insight into Russia and its past. The infrastructure, industry, towns and cities that were built under communism have largely become abandoned and decaying. Youngsters have left to go abroad or to the big city's and all the older people left look back at communism with fondness.

When you look at parts of the UK there are similar situations with mining , steel and ship building industries.....towns left devastated. 

 

[avfc1982am]

I think we are more likely to see a Ukraine offensive than a Russian one. If Russia couldn't get into Kyiv first time around they've sure as shit got absolutely no chance now now it's been flooded with Western tech and everyone is armed to the teeth. They'll do well to consolidate around Donetsk never mind trying to push back in via the North and Belarus. Plus that fat melt won't open himself up to Belarus being attacked by Ukraine which is what will happen this time around should Russia try sending forces from there.

I still think the next major offensive with be towards Melitopol, as that will be key for Ukraine if there is any wish to take back the South, protect Kherson and potentially push into Crimea. Currently strikes on the bridge between Kostyantynivka and Melitopol indicate we aren't to far from seeing this become a reality imo. The vast grain fields in the South East would also lead me to think the priority will be to reclaim as much of this land as possible as it's the area that produces the most wheat in Ukraine. Or at east was. 

 

 

[bickster]

3 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

Plus that fat melt won't open himself up to Belarus being attacked by Ukraine

Actually pulled his troops back from the border yesterday.

[TheAuthority]

On 13/12/2022 at 13:28, bickster said:

You realise how many Americans have lived for that moment, nobody would need to supply arms to the militias there

Hey rednecks, the Ruskies are a comin'

If Putin was in charge he's invade Texas first, in summer

Sadly Steve Bannon turned that on it's head.

[TheAuthority]

7 hours ago, tinker said:

Bald and bankrupt on YouTube shows a great insight into Russia and its past. The infrastructure, industry, towns and cities that were built under communism have largely become abandoned and decaying. Youngsters have left to go abroad or to the big city's and all the older people left look back at communism with fondness.

When you look at parts of the UK there are similar situations with mining , steel and ship building industries.....towns left devastated. 

 

For those that haven't seen it (over 16 year old now) "The Lives of Others" is a wonderfully nuanced take on life under Soviet style Communism. 

 

[blandy]

2 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

For those that haven't seen it (over 16 year old now) "The Lives of Others" is a wonderfully nuanced take on life under Soviet style Communism. 

 

Great film. Saw it in 2009 on a Singapore Airlines plane, travelling with work. It seemed back then like tales of the East German past and move to the present, but this war suggests those days aren't gone yet.

[avfc1982am]

3 hours ago, blandy said:

Great film. Saw it in 2009 on a Singapore Airlines plane, travelling with work. It seemed back then like tales of the East German past and move to the present, but this war suggests those days aren't gone yet.

I think we can all safely say that had Russia been able to take over Ukraine they'd have been under a similar yoke to those in East Germany before the wall came down. Imagine been faced with that, death of your family and living under such a savage regime. It's like the Ukrainians made the right decision to fight back. 

I think a lot of people haven't thought of what it would be like for Ukraine had they not put up a struggle. 

[AVFC_Hitz]

5 hours ago, TheAuthority said:

For those that haven't seen it (over 16 year old now) "The Lives of Others" is a wonderfully nuanced take on life under Soviet style Communism. 

 

One of my favourite films of all time. Check out 'The Last Execution' also. 

[avfc1982am]

Great piece in the Washington Post and well worth a read. A real in depth on the strength, deployment and following decimation of one of Russia's Elite Brigades in the conflict. 

The war in Ukraine has decimated a once feared Russian brigade - The Washington Post

Quote

 

‘Wiped out’: War in Ukraine has decimated a once feared Russian brigade. The bloody fate of the 200th Separate Motor Rifle Brigade is emblematic of Vladimir Putin’s derailed invasion plans    

HELSINKI — Nuclear-armed submarines slip in and out of the frigid waters along the coast of Russia’s Kola Peninsula at the northern edge of Europe. Missiles capable of destroying cities are stored by the dozens in bunkers burrowed into the inland hills.

Since the Cold War, this Arctic arsenal has been protected by a combat unit considered one of Russia’s most formidable — the 200th Separate Motor Rifle Brigade — until it sent its best fighters and weapons to Ukraine this year and was effectively destroyed.

The 200th was among the first units to plunge into Ukraine on Feb. 24, as part of a fearsome assault on the city of Kharkiv. By May, the unit was staggering back across the Russian border desperate to regroup, according to internal brigade documents reviewed by The Washington Post and to previously undisclosed details provided by Ukrainian and Western military and intelligence officials.

A document detailing a mid-war inventory of its ranks shows that by late May, fewer than 900 soldiers were left in two battalion tactical groups that, according to Western officials, had departed the brigade’s garrison in Russia with more than 1,400. The brigade’s commander was badly wounded. And some of those still being counted as part of the unit were listed as hospitalized, missing or “refuseniks” unwilling to fight, according to the document, part of a trove of internal Russian military files obtained by Ukraine’s security services and provided to The Post.

 

 

[magnkarl]

On 15/12/2022 at 10:37, pas5898 said:

Everyone is technically of Russian Origin if over the age of 40. It was one big happy soviet family!

Maternal side is Russian Origin (her nan moved during WW2)  -  Despite only living in Lithuania my mother in law is 100 percent "russian", speaks russian, watches russian TV etc. They are angry with me for learning Lithuanian.

Her dad is Lithuanian / Polish by decent but is 100 percent Russian politically, speaks russian and despite living in Lithuania holds a distain for the european side of things.

All the younger generation are 100 percent Lithuanian / European and anti Russia.

 

You forget that all of the Baltic people were subjected to extreme prejudice from Stalin’s regime. Most were forcibly moved beyond the Urals, and their homes were filled with Russians.

It’s not weird at all that Russians who were moved to the Baltics to Russify the place in the 80s like Russia. Genocide is the reason why they’re there.

Linky

Quote

Hundreds of thousands of innocent people became the victims of two Soviet occupations of the Baltic states: Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia. The two occasions on which the Baltic states were forcibly joined to the Soviet Union had an especially tragic impact on their inhabitants. Many were executed, imprisoned or sent to Gulag camps, though the largest number of victims comprised those deported from their homelands to inhospitable corners of Soviet Russia. Such deportations took place regularly. However, the biggest waves of deportation took place in 1941 (the so-called June deportations) and in 1949 (known as the March deportations, these occurred as part of Operation Priboi).

It's essentially what Putin has been doing in the areas he's controlled in Ukraine since 2014 too. He's following his idol Stalin's playbook.

Edited December 19, 2022 by magnkarl

[juanpabloangel18]

It’s possibly been mentioned but having recently watched all of it, can recommend Adam Curtis’ new doc TraumaZone on iPlayer. It covers Russia during the 80s and 90s using exclusively archive footage. No narration!

It’s very good