Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[LondonLax]

1 minute ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

What a coincidence.....

This is exactly why the Brazil, Russia, India, China, South Africa alliance is doomed.  

 

 

 

There are regular scuffles along the India China border and what is kind of bizarre is they usually fight with rocks or sticks etc because using guns would risk a hot war between two nuclear powers. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

24 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

How many of your family members would you be willing to sacrifice for not having to have a Russian passport?

The idea posted earlier that Ukrainians choosing to take up arms and fight a Russian takeover has somehow save more Ukrainian lives than it has cost is pretty preposterous. 

Following that, for the people killed it was obviously the poorer of the two possible outcomes. 

For the people who survive this war we are left with a question of whether it was worth it and that is going to vary pretty dramatically from person to person depending on how they have been affected.

I would not begrudge or call a Ukrainian a coward if they would have preferred the path of least resistance. It is an enormous sacrifice to take the stance they have, and for some it will be too big of a sacrifice. I’m not sure what I would do in the same scenario myself. 

That really couldn't be more wrong.  Just look what happened to countries invaded by  the USSR during WW2.  There is a reason why most of them joined NATO.  It wasn't because the Russian's were lovely chaps.  It was the oppression and the massacres. 

 

 

[bickster]

55 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

How many of your family members would you be willing to sacrifice for not having to have a Russian passport?

This is a ludicrous notion. Your family do not sacrifice you. (Well Russian mothers in search of a Lada aside) Not only that, it isn't just about passports. It's about the freedom of a people, its about keeping a culture alive and a whole host of other things.

[avfc1982am]

14 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

 

Well it certainly makes all their deaths much easier to think about if you take up a belief that they would have died either way, so they might as well fight. 

It doesn't,  death is never easy, especially for those left behind to pick up the pieces.. What it makes easier is the justification for fighting because to not could be far far worse. Law of averages says that in the instance of Russian aggression surrendering is offering yourself up for sacrifice. 

[LondonLax]

 

12 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

It doesn't,  death is never easy, especially for those left behind to pick up the pieces.. What it makes easier is the justification for fighting because to not could be far far worse. Law of averages says that in the instance of Russian aggression surrendering is offering yourself up for sacrifice. 

It makes it much less of a moral dilemma if you believe that. 

[bickster]

15 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

 

It makes it much less of a moral dilemma if you believe that. 

Are you suggesting the acts of genocide perpetrated by Russia in this conflict are not true?

Mass graves

Civilians hanging in the street

Rape

Torture

Bombing Hospitals and other civilian Infrastructure

The evidence is already out there. The dilemma does not exist in the minds of Ukrainians, they already knew what would happen. History taught them that

[LondonLax]

18 minutes ago, bickster said:

Are you suggesting the acts of genocide perpetrated by Russia in this conflict are not true?

Mass graves

Civilians hanging in the street

Rape

Torture

Bombing Hospitals and other civilian Infrastructure

The evidence is already out there. The dilemma does not exist in the minds of Ukrainians, they already knew what would happen. History taught them that

No of course not. I am suggesting they were met out to people who resisted occupation. A price paid by people resisting an invasion and viewed as enemy combatants by the invaders. 

There are a portion of Ukrainians, particularly in the Donbas region who have welcomed Russian occupation and will likely find things more difficult if Ukraine wins back that land. 

There are a third portion who don’t seem to mind which government rules the country and just want to be left alone to get on with their lives. 

 

[sidcow]

28 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

There are a third portion who don’t seem to mind which government rules the country and just want to be left alone to get on with their lives. 

That's an impossibility under Russian rule. 

No one is left to get on with their lives. 

[LondonLax]

Just now, sidcow said:

That's an impossibility under Russian rule. 

No one is left to get on with their lives. 

That’s not true. I read interviews with people in the Kharkiv region at the time of the Russian withdrawal there who were carrying on under Russian occupation before the Russians withdrew and then found themselves back under Ukrainian rule and were only interested in peace. 

[villa89]

23 minutes ago, sidcow said:

That's an impossibility under Russian rule. 

No one is left to get on with their lives. 

In the area annexed by Russia the Russian government will obviously try to get people onside by build infrastructure, creating jobs, lower taxes etc. You don't annex an area and then piss the people who live there off. You try to bribe them so they don't cause a fuss. 

[avfc1982am]

13 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

That’s not true. I read interviews with people in the Kharkiv region at the time of the Russian withdrawal there who were carrying on under Russian occupation before the Russians withdrew and then found themselves back under Ukrainian rule and were only interested in peace. 

Somehow I think you may have struggled to find someone who doesn't want peace. Especially when they've been terrorised and probably trust no one at this moment in time. 

The facts are they're a lot of Russians and pro Russians in Ukraine although a minority when it comes to Ukrainians. That does not give Russia the right to wander into Ukraine and start killing everyone non Russian or opposed to them. Under any circumstances. The idea that the majority of people don't care who rules is just utter bollox. 

 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

There are a portion of Ukrainians, particularly in the Donbas region who have welcomed Russian occupation and will likely find things more difficult if Ukraine wins back that land. 

There were British people that would have welcomed the German invasion from Operation Sealion. What point are you trying to make.

The Russians invaded Donbas in 2014 and have substantially changed the population since then

I'm also getting a sense of, you've been invaded put up with it or die from that - which quite frankly just boggles my mind

[avfc1982am]

3 minutes ago, villa89 said:

In the area annexed by Russia the Russian government will obviously try to get people onside by build infrastructure, creating jobs, lower taxes etc. You don't annex an area and then piss the people who live there off. You try to bribe them so they don't cause a fuss. 

And hows that all panning out? The annexation of all these regions. What have Russia improved or have they just obliterated normality for Ukrainians who now struggle for everything. 

Russians f***** off before Ukrainians even entered Kherson. It's that much of a Russian City that the Russians didn't have the nerve to stay and get rid of the Ukrainians Nazis that were coming to take it back. My guess here is Russia are only interested in robbing and murder, and when they've had their fill and realise they can never stay and they've exhausted themselves, they'll f*** off again with some other bullshit reasoning instead of the overwhelming fact that Ukrainians want them out of Ukraine.  

Russia are that concerned about Ukrainians they decided to blow up all infrastructure and leave all their brothers and sisters in the cold, not because they are hateful bastards but because they want to rebuild everything again. FFS. 

 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

I am suggesting they were met out to people who resisted occupation.

Yes the 6 year old girls that were raped, the baby that was raped, they were resisting the invasion. 

All the children that were killed, were resisting the invasion

Give your head a wobble please

[LondonLax]

1 hour ago, bickster said:

Yes the 6 year old girls that were raped, the baby that was raped, they were resisting the invasion. 

All the children that were killed, were resisting the invasion

Give your head a wobble please

This is exactly the point isn’t it. The war crimes are committed because there was a war. Those children who were killed are the victims of a war taking place.
 

Hopefully it is worth it in the end to avoid the Russians taking charge of the land but for those children it would obviously have been far better to welcome Russian rule. Totally unjust of course but when resisting equals rape and death then the dilemma does exist. 

Edited December 13, 2022 by LondonLax

[bickster]

20 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

This is exactly the point isn’t it. The war crimes are committed because there was a war. Those children who were killed are the victims of a war taking place.
 

Hopefully it is worth it in the end to avoid the Russians taking charge of the land but for those children it would obviously have been far better to welcome Russian rule. Totally unjust of course but when resisting equals rape and death then the dilemma does exist. 

It is just a very bizarre point of view

You appear to be saying a world where the bully takes all is the right way to go

 

[LondonLax]

2 hours ago, avfc1982am said:

Somehow I think you may have struggled to find someone who doesn't want peace. Especially when they've been terrorised and probably trust no one at this moment in time. 

The facts are they're a lot of Russians and pro Russians in Ukraine although a minority when it comes to Ukrainians. That does not give Russia the right to wander into Ukraine and start killing everyone non Russian or opposed to them. Under any circumstances. The idea that the majority of people don't care who rules is just utter bollox. 

 

Totally agree with all of that, and am not sure why you’d feel the need to repost it in response to my post. 

[LondonLax]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

It is just a very bizarre point of view

You appear to be saying a world where the bully takes all is the right way to go

 

Not sure where you’re getting that from. I am saying there is a moral dilemma and it is not as simple as people seem to be making out. 

It is totally right and just that Ukrainian should win against their brutal invaders. However, there is a price to be paid for that stance. From our position in comfort, far away from and direct impacts of this invasion the obvious course of action is that the brave Ukrainians should fight against their invaders and any losses are a sad inevitability and the price for freedom.

It becomes a very different matter if it is your life that is the price for freedom. Or that your 6 year old daughter is raped and killed during that struggle for freedom. Under those scenarios perhaps Russian rule is actually preferable for those individuals. There must be a point for every person where the struggle for freedom from Russian rule requires too high a price to pay.

 

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

Not sure where you’re getting that from. I am saying there is a moral dilemma and it is not as simple as people seem to be making out. 

It is totally right and just that Ukrainian should win against their brutal invaders. However, there is a price to be paid for that stance. From our position in comfort, far away from and direct impacts of this invasion the obvious course of action is that the brave Ukrainians should fight against their invaders and any losses are a sad inevitability and the price for freedom.

It becomes a very different matter if it is your life that is the price for freedom. Or that your 6 year old daughter is raped and killed during that struggle for freedom. Under those scenarios perhaps Russian rule is actually preferable for those individuals. There must be a point for every person where the struggle for freedom from Russian rule requires too high a price to pay.

 

The Ukrainian people seem to be pretty solid in their thoughts on the matter in every opinion poll I've seen conducted on the issue. (Usual caveats obviously)

I also don't see any signs of dissent in Ukraine about their stance nor do you see many if any signs of suppression of dissent

[LondonLax]

Just now, bickster said:

The Ukrainian people seem to be pretty solid in their thoughts on the matter in every opinion poll I've seen conducted on the issue. (Usual caveats obviously)

I also don't see any signs of dissent in Ukraine about their stance nor do you see many if any signs of suppression of dissent

Well it’s obviously difficult to dissent once you’ve been killed in a war but I suspect I can guess what they would have preferred if death was the other alternative. 

I did also read an article in the Irish Times that claimed the Ukrainians who were most in favour of accepting a surrender agreement were those closest to the front lines and those who were most in favour of pushing on with the war were those furthest from the hot spots, which probably makes sense on a number of levels, including those in southeastern Ukraine being more sympathetic to Russia but also that they are more directly affected by the war.