Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[Mandy Lifeboats]

3 hours ago, Lichfield Dean said:

So going to open a sweet shop called the North Atlantic Treat Organisation 

I shall open one next door . 

North Atlantic Sweety Organisation. 

[BleedClaretAndBlue]

 

[Lichfield Dean]

1 minute ago, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

 

Always has to have something in that hand of his....

[villakram]

You are all welcome. It is much more soothing to head off into the land of mirth than think about the issue at hand.

I could have been really nasty and stuck the boot into @Mandy Lifeboats for saying the silent part out loud, i.e., that Russia is no threat to the awesome and overwhelming power of [an expansionist and adversarial] NATO. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

2 hours ago, villakram said:

You are all welcome. It is much more soothing to head off into the land of mirth than think about the issue at hand.

I could have been really nasty and stuck the boot into @Mandy Lifeboats for saying the silent part out loud, i.e., that Russia is no threat to the awesome and overwhelming power of [an expansionist and adversarial] NATO. 

Feel free. 

Russia is presently no threat to NATO because Putin has destroyed Russia’s military capability and military credibility.  

NATO expands because of the actions of Russia.  Most of the Warsaw pact joined NATO.  They didn’t join because Russia is a nice peaceful neighbour.  

I am not sure why you think saying that Russia is no threat to NATO is a topic that shouldn’t be spoken.  It’s not the coming of Voldemort.  

 

 

[magnkarl]

4 hours ago, villakram said:

You are all welcome. It is much more soothing to head off into the land of mirth than think about the issue at hand.

I could have been really nasty and stuck the boot into @Mandy Lifeboats for saying the silent part out loud, i.e., that Russia is no threat to the awesome and overwhelming power of [an expansionist and adversarial] NATO. 

Do you know what the Budapest Memorandum is?

In all honesty if that’s your stance I wonder where you get your information. Mind sharing?

Edited December 9, 2022 by magnkarl

[Mandy Lifeboats]

There is presently a massive fire in a Moscow Shopping Centre.  7000 square metres is burning to the ground.  

I knew I shouldn’t have opened the Moscow Branch of the North Atlantic Sweety Organisation so quickly.  

[bickster]

24 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

There is presently a massive fire in a Moscow Shopping Centre.  7000 square metres is burning to the ground.  

I knew I shouldn’t have opened the Moscow Branch of the North Atlantic Sweety Organisation so quickly.  

Guaranteed it was the new branch of SuperCigski that started it. Notch another one up to sanctions buster Phillip Morris.

[Genie]

12 minutes ago, bickster said:

Guaranteed it was the new branch of SuperCigski that started it. Notch another one up to sanctions buster Phillip Morris.

Stood too close to one of those pesky tankers

[Enda]

“Expansionist” NATO. Remarkable how the fellas who use that phrase don’t distinguish between expansion via mutual agreement, and expansion via invasion and annexation. 

[bickster]

17 minutes ago, Enda said:

“Expansionist” NATO. Remarkable how the fellas who use that phrase don’t distinguish between expansion via mutual agreement, and expansion via invasion and annexation. 

It's a Putin narrative that has been pushed by left wing Russian shills for some considerable time. In the UK it usually starts with the likes of Galloway and Milne and filters down to the masses. It's been said for so long now, many believe it to be a universal truth without ever questioning it.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

I am also amused by people who claim that Russia is actually at war with NATO.  

Russia was very quick to state that its missiles hadn't strayed into NATO Territory.  Not the actions you would expect during a war. 

[LondonLax]

Russian leadership isn’t threatened by an encroachment of NATO weapons.

It is threatened by an encroachment of western soft power and independence it brings from Russian influence in regions the Russian government previously had control over. 

That kind of thing is contagious. Previously it was the Baltics, today Ukraine. Tomorrow Belarus and the ‘stans?

[bickster]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

Russian leadership isn’t threatened by an encroachment of NATO weapons.

It is threatened by an encroachment of western soft power and independence it brings from Russian influence in regions the Russian government previously had control over. 

That kind of thing is contagious. Previously it was the Baltics, today Ukraine. Tomorrow Belarus and the ‘stans?

Yes exactly, NATO is a convenient excuse for Russia. Finland will be no more of a threat to Russia inside or outside of NATO. But the ideas and freedoms of "The West" are the threat and that threat is to the regime in charge and not the people

Though the Ukraine Invasion isn't just about that threat either, it's like an awful lot of imperialist wars and invasions - a land grab for resources

Amongst many other drivers too

[HKP90]

1 hour ago, LondonLax said:

Russian leadership isn’t threatened by an encroachment of NATO weapons.

It is threatened by an encroachment of western soft power and independence it brings from Russian influence in regions the Russian government previously had control over. 

That kind of thing is contagious. Previously it was the Baltics, today Ukraine. Tomorrow Belarus and the ‘stans?

Spot on, and it's worse for Putin even than that, because the sheer effort that they are going to to subvert what they must know is the truth or has an element of truth is bound to make some officials say 'hang on a minute why are working so hard to suppress this information?'

 

[Genie]

Nobody bordering Russia can trust them anymore. It’s entirely Russias fault these people want additional security in place.

[fruitvilla]

@villakramis right in the sense that NATO expansion is a threat to Russia. But the threat (or treat, if we prefer) is not a military threat. The threat is to Russia's political and economic influence in Europe. With ex-Soviet and ex-block countries being in the sphere of western influence ... Russia is increasingly reduced to being a provider of raw materials. 

[bickster]

1 hour ago, fruitvilla said:

@villakramis right in the sense that NATO expansion is a threat to Russia. But the threat (or treat, if we prefer) is not a military threat. The threat is to Russia's political and economic influence in Europe. With ex-Soviet and ex-block countries being in the sphere of western influence ... Russia is increasingly reduced to being a provider of raw materials. 

Rubbish, Ukraine was threat in that sense because it wanted to become more aligned with a Western Democracy, it's membership of NATO is utterly irrelevant. If anything, Ukraine's desire to join the EU was far more of a "threat."

NATO has always been an excuse for Russia, they don't feel militarily threatened by NATO because NATO has never made moves to invade Russia (because Nukes). NATO responds to Russia's threat not vice versa. Russia understands this perfectly well

EDIT: Leading up to this Ukraine was at least a decade away from joining NATO and as long as it had border disputes like you know, with Russia being on its territory, it could never join. The only way it could have joined would have been to voluntarily ceded its lands to Russia and it was never going to do that. Russia fully understood that, which is a huge reason why it invaded in 2014 and annexed Crimea etc.

NATO is and always has been an excuse.

[sidcow]

In my opinion it's a pure land grab as Russia relys so heavily on Gas and oil.   Those resources are going to inevitably die in importance and value.  Within probably 20-30 years they'll be almost worthless. 

Putin wanted those endless miles of rolling productive fields I think. 

We've seen already the world can be held to ransom on for as easily as fossil fuels. Then it so gives Russia huge influence in Africa. 

[fruitvilla]

3 hours ago, bickster said:

Rubbish, Ukraine was threat in that sense because it wanted to become more aligned with a Western Democracy, it's membership of NATO is utterly irrelevant. If anything, Ukraine's desire to join the EU was far more of a "threat."

NATO has always been an excuse for Russia, they don't feel militarily threatened by NATO because NATO has never made moves to invade Russia (because Nukes). NATO responds to Russia's threat not vice versa. Russia understands this perfectly well

EDIT: Leading up to this Ukraine was at least a decade away from joining NATO and as long as it had border disputes like you know, with Russia being on its territory, it could never join. The only way it could have joined would have been to voluntarily ceded its lands to Russia and it was never going to do that. Russia fully understood that, which is a huge reason why it invaded in 2014 and annexed Crimea etc.

NATO is and always has been an excuse.

I am not sure where we are differing here?

 

Edited December 9, 2022 by fruitvilla